Kamiyoshi Higo Tsuba...

[Guido]

Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

[Ford Hallam]

 

David,

 

the Showa period tsuba-shi you're thinking of is Tahei Yonemitsu (1888 ~ 1980). National Living Treasure.Here's a link to some examples of his work and a few bits of text. He had a few students who followed his style also.

 

Here's a fine example of Showa period work by one of those students, Sasaki Tsuneharu. This particular tsuba was made as a commission for Ikeda Suematsu the tosogu specialist and father of polisher Ikeda Nagamasa Sensei.

[Justin]

A beautiful tsuba Ford. The detail is amazing. I really like the little Hosokawa mon around the outside. How long would something like this take to make?

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Justin

 

yes, it is a remarkable piece of work and in hand it is truly breathtaking. I mean, I can actually do the nunome technique reasonably well myself but this is of an almost angelic degree of delicacy and precision. The culmination of a life's work on might say. The pattern is in 2 different colours of gold btw.

 

As I was studying it I did in fact try to figure out how long it might take and I'd have to say probably at least 4 months.

[Curran]

Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

 

Jah, jah-

The Occam's Razor is that this is towards me.

Though I wondered if you were taking your humor to a new level with the Pius Pacelli latin.

It would be most elegant if I thought there was some self deprecation in it.

 

I am clearly a Fool,

and quite aware it would have been in my best interests to be silent.

Especially if afraid of being found out to be a fool.

 

We're not debating a national treasure tea cup here, or a Yonemitsu for that matter.

Share your opinion, please.

[Soshin]

As stated earlier, saw this tsuba on a website and wondered about its age.

Saw it in Tampa and though it was more interesting.

Then got to sit with it under magnification and think about it for a while.

 

I'm not confident whether it is Edo or Meiji, but I'm rather sure it isn't Showa or more recent.

It is well preserved and incredibly polished (though not to the point of some of Sasano's tsuba), yet shows points of age and wear. Just not easily visible in the photos.

It has the feel and finish of pieces I've see on some better preserved Toppei koshirae.

Those punch marks are as controlled as skilled nanako, though I couldn't tell that until looking under magnification. If I remember correctly, their actually little 'y's like chidori feet? David will need correct me, but I remember it being a different that I had first though when looking. I just assumed it was generally patterned, but 10x magnification showed very tight punchwork.

 

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for the examples Ford H. This was the person I was think about. I find his work a wonderful visual meditation and should be considered the apex of Shōwa Period art in the realm of tosogu.

To bring thread back on topic. I can confirm all of Curran observations using a small hand magnifier that I bring to shows. I would go on to say that under magnification cleaned rust pits on plate surface are clearly visible. I will go back to the high resolution raw images to see if I can generate a small section image of the plate that is low enough resolution to post. that shows what I am talking about. If anything this tsuba likely is a bit over cleaned by Skip Holbrook when it was in his collection.

[Justin]

Isn't it a shame that the NBTHK don't do international shinsa anymore? I don't think it would be worth sending this tsuba to Japan for a second opinion.

 

Do you like it David? Can you live with it? If so, then keep it ... regardless of age or attribution.

[Soshin]

Isn't it a shame that the NBTHK don't do international shinsa anymore? I don't think it would be worth sending this tsuba to Japan for a second opinion.

 

Hi Justin,

 

No I am of the opinion that no group should be doing international shinsa. They all should be in Japan. This is how I feel and I am sure other people would agree and disagree based upon personal experience. In regard to this tsuba I think it is worth submitting NBTHK if I decided to keep it in my collection. I am not looking for a return on my investment but an expansion of my knowledge. I don't see this tsuba failing NBTHK shinsa the worst possible attribution is "Kodai Higo" the best case attribution is a specific attribution to a Kamiyoshi school tsubako or a late Hayashi tsubako.

On the NTHK fail paper there was a selection for why it failed. Range of selections included: "Fake Signature", "Fake Work", "Poor Condition", "Poor Quality", "Cast", "Been in a fire", and "Modern Made". Only "Modern Made" was selected. I like the tsuba and if it was poor quality they would have marked it.

[cabowen]

I would suggest resubmitting it to the NTHK-NPO shinsa when they come next to the US.

 

Not saying I agree that this tsuba is gendai, but if gendai swords can be papered, why not tsuba?

[Justin]

David, I'd be interested in your reasons why the 3 main shinsa organisations shouldn't do international shinsas? Why should they just be in Japan? i understand they don't often bring all of their reference books/oshigata examples, however quite a few attributions are straight forward. There is also much to learn from the shinsa team and other collectors at these events. So much nihonto is in overseas collections and events like these help bring interesting things to light.

[Soshin]

I would suggest resubmitting it to the NTHK-NPO shinsa when they come next to the US.

 

Not saying I agree that this tsuba is gendai, but if gendai swords can be papered, why not tsuba?

 

Hi Chris,

 

I fully agree with your quoted statements I might just do that and resubmit it to the NTHK-NPO. It makes no sense to fail something just because it is modern but clearly made using traditional materials and techniques. This is not to say my tsuba is modern as I don't think it is just not that old (i.e. 150-120 years old).

 

 

Hi Justin,

 

It comes down to how many large books you can carry on a airplane. The books used for kantei are really large. I have two such books in my reference collection for tosogu and I can't imagine trying to fly from Japan to the US with such large set of books. I also remember being told a long time ago that if the NTHK can't identify something they will default to failing it. With all due respect to the NTHK this was what I was told followed by personal stories of people submitting failed items from the US shinsa to the NBTHK or even to the NTHK in Japan and having the same nihonto and tosogu later pass. I am not anti NTHK but it is like any other organization and made up of people that are imperfect and can make mistakes. I will better remember my interactions with Jim Gilbert at shows because he really like my early Nanban tsuba at the Tampa show this year (check my website for more information). I really should have submitted that tsuba to the NTHK shinsa last weekend. With that said I am still looking forward to the next NTHK shinsa which I hope I will be able to attend as I find them good learning experiences. Live, lean, and keep collecting. :D

[Ford Hallam]

So what I've learned is; if you have a tsuba you'd like an expert opinion on you're advised to submit it for expert appraisal at a recognised Shinsa.

 

If you get a favourable result all is well, the Shinsa panel are obviously well qualified and your money was well spent BUT if you don't like the result the appropriate response is to call into question the panel's reliability and to suggest your own expertise is more valid and your insights superior, and you threw your money down the drain on a pointless exercise. Additionally you have the option of shopping around for another panel in the hope they might give you want you want.

 

It's also important to disparage the Shinsa panel on a public forum to make sure interested parties are aware of your rejection of any opposing expert opinions. This action is especially important should you at some point in the future decide you're sufficiently well qualified and experienced to hold your own Shinsa. This has the added advantage of saving you money and also of ensuring you always get the results you expect.

 

And Curran, I'm afraid I think you're really way off base on this point alone;

"Those punch marks are as controlled as skilled nanako"

 

I think I can claim a modicum of expertise it the application of a texture like this and skilled this most decidedly is not.

 

As you describe, the punch used is a Y shaped one and the texture is called chidori-ishime, a reference to the little birds footprints. However, if the texture is more dense is can resemble crushed leather so then it's called gawa-hada. The point being; these different textures require control to keep them defined. In this example we see no such clarity, merely a smudged and irregular ground that varies all over the range of possibilities. The reason for this is because the maker was very obviously inexperienced in the creation of this sort of ground.

[Thierry BERNARD]

Hi Ford

 

even if i agree with you, I just want to remind you that you were the first in this thread asking about the skills of shinsa panel!! :D

 

in my mind, only one question remains: why a Showa era tsuba can't get an hozon paper?

[Brian]

Well....isn't it a fact that if they suspect the maker could be still alive, it won't get a paper?

Sorry, but as much as I would prefer this not to degenerate into bickering, I can't get over the fact that from the pics alone, Mariusz, Kevin and Ford all called it as student and/or modern work. And then the shinsa panel said the same thing.

That can't be discounted folks, say what you like.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Thierry,

 

yes, I did ask about the panel's qualifications and when given a link to them I wrote the following; "A highly qualified panel by any reckoning, I think" At that point I didn't know if their opinion would agree with my own of course so I'm relieved I didn't end up looking silly and having resort to calling them unreliable

 

As to why a Showa tsuba might be rejected it may be that in fact this tsuba isn't 'traditionally' made, perhaps the panel, like me, think it's simple mild steel plate devoid of any features we'd expect to see in handmade steel. To my eyes in sword terms this tsuba is the equivalent of a gunto. Or maybe this is a clue; ""Showato" is used by collectors to also refer to non-traditionally made swords of the Showa Era. It also implies a lower grade of blade not usually of interest to Nihonto collectors."

From the Japanese Sword Index.

[kunitaro]

a bit interruption,

Ford san,

Thank you very much for sharing great photo of a master piece of Sasaki Tsuneharu, Signed : Tame Ikeda Suematsu sensei.

 

Ikeda Suematsu sensei was the advicer of mr.Sasaki Tsuneharu, He was often visiting and staying Ikeda sensei's house,

Also Ikeda sensei was sponsoring Mr.Sasaki's work, especially when he was making such a tsuba which Ford san posted.

A perfect Higo zogan tsuba.

 

Jigane of the tsuba was made by sword smith Mr.So Tsutomu,

mr.So said that it was very sensitive and hard work, more difficult than forging a sword.

The Material (Jigane) must be really fine and perfect (holding forging) for very fine sukashi and zogan,

if there is any fukure or forging mistake, it will ruined the super fine zogan or sukashi,

when the works become finer, small mistake will stand out...

mr.So Tsutomu made 3 jiganes, used 60% of Tamahagane and 40% of Steel from old Hinawaju for mr.Sasaki.

 

Normal Higo zogan tsuba takes him 3-5month, but, that Tsuba took him 1 year.

When He started this project, He send his wife back to parents house, stay by himself alone, and No TV, wake up when sun rise, and go to bed when Sun down.

to keep his eye and finger best condition,

not allowed any mistake in process, filing or chiseling..

and spending more than half of time for re-sharpening, re-conditioning his tools.

 

The tsuba is one of the highest level work !!!

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

As I should have stated before the last two judgments I completely agreed with that the NTHK shinsa panel made. One was for a tsuba (2012) that passed and the other was a wakizashi (2006) that failed. This time around I disagree but I am free to do so even to the point of submitting it to the NTHK-NPO or NBTHK. I was thinking about mailing it back to Grey Doffin but I will wait until Baltimore Japanese Sword Show and return it to him in person if I come to that conclusion from my own study of the tsuba in hand. I reviewed my original photos of this tsuba and they were badly out of focus much like the photo Ford posted done by Grey so I will try to take new photos next weekend as I am busy this weekend with a family pic-nic. If the tsuba was not traditionally made the NTHK shinsa panel would have selected "Fake Work" and/or "Poor Quality" under the reasons for rejections. They only selected "Modern Made" as the reason(s) for rejection.

 

Hi Kunitaro-san,

 

Thank you so much for providing additional information about the making of that masterpiece. :D

[Ford Hallam]

Kunitaro San

 

thank you so much for the additional information regarding Sasaki Tsuneharu and his work. I feel a pleasing connection to both as Ikeda's Suematsu Sensei's son, Ikeda Nagamasa Sensei has been adding to my own studies in recent years also.

 

Holding that tsuba you can really feel the spirit and commitment he poured into the work, it is quite splendid. I don't know if my family will leave me alone for a year to attempt such a project though

 

I assume you know the book NIHONTO SHOKUNIN SHOKUDAN. There is a chapter on Sasaki Tsuneharu that you may find very interesting also.

 

David, you may find, that the 'soft focus' is more flattering than a too sharp image. Some tsuba can be like women in that respect. but Grey's photo is more than clear enough to asses the quality of the ground if you understand what you're looking at.

 

If the tsuba was not traditionally made the NTHK shinsa panel would have selected "Fake Work" and/or "Poor Quality" under the reasons for rejections. They only selected "Modern Made" as the reason(s) for rejection.

Do you know this for a fact or are you just second guessing the panels rationale?

[cabowen]

If it was rejected because it is gendai (modern), then by that logic, the tsuba by Sasaki Tsuneharu that Ford posted would be rejected too....

[Soshin]

Do you know this for a fact or are you just second guessing the panels rationale?

 

Hi Ford H.,

 

Yes I do I am looking at the pink color failure paper from the shinsa and was simply stating what was selected.

 

Hi Chris B.,

 

Yes very good point.

[Thierry BERNARD]

I was thinking about mailing it back to Grey Doffin but I will wait until Baltimore Japanese Sword Show and return it to him in person if I come to that conclusion from my own study of the tsuba in hand.

 

Hi David

 

Just a friendly remark :

 

I see no reasons to return this tsuba to the seller, the tsuba is honestly describe ( even if shinsa say it's not what you expected), you say that the tsuba is best in hand than in pictures, so in my opinion the seller is not faulty! sometimes you have to assume your mistakes even if it costs a little bit! :?

[Curran]

Ford- keep magnifying. 10x. Until you see the chidori type 'Y' punch marks. It surprised me too.

Wondered if if had been achieved in some other way, and kept looking for overlap of a panel type punch, but it showed much more like a brocade with only slight little expansions / contractions in density of pattern. Panel punch in itself would form a secondary pattern. So keep magnifying and then consider explaining, onegaishimasu. Alternatively, just dismiss it.

 

As Thierry noted, you've long been one to cast on the NBTHK.

The "A highly qualified panel by any reckoning, I think", sounded standard Hallam tongue in cheek.

Having worked 3 of the Yoshikawa NTHK shinsa and handled most of the shinsa result paperwork for them, there have previously been several fittings judges. In the past there has usually been another one or two at the shinsa not with a Bio up. I was curious who the other judges had been this time around. I doubt the NTHK has cut down to just the two.

 

I'm sorry that David has become a flashpoint here, but I agree with him. Per the Droll Troll wisdom, it would be easy to step aside and let David go this one alone. I won't, even knowing this tsuba is a difficult one to defend with such an unusual design and such and odd mix of uncertainty in the workmanship and then OCD in other aspects of it. You imply the NTHK gave it the full weight of its experience and observation. Though I haven't corresponded with David about it, I do concur that the USA based shinsa face a long list of constraints from jetlag to limits on references. The often cited added value of the NTHK is the extra information they are willing to provide. In this instance, I think David did not get it. As former handler of the shinsa paperwork, I would guess he got a mostly blank worksheet. Classically, the rejects for swords have been pink. The ones for kodogu have varied depending what color paper they had on hand for non-pass. (Edit: I see that David posted just now his too received the infamous 'pinkie' /old joke of the finger connotation meant too.)

 

Personal experience and how we react to it being the learning or not learning process. You seem to feel we're off in La-La Land not learning a damn thing. I don't think we are really to one side or another, as the tsuba is an odd one. Might be a mix of student & teacher work. Do you totally abstain from touching the work of your students? I prefer the other one David bought in Tampa, but both were interesting for very different reasons. David has timelined his experience in public and the NMB members in observance can form their opinions. Be we prattling fools, I'll take it over silence.

[Pete Klein]

To the best of my knowledge the NBTHK, NTHK & NTHK NPO do not paper to living artists. If Sasaki Tsuneharu is alive then they would not paper but if dead a signed piece would most likely be eligible for shinsa to verify the mei. If unsigned and modern why would you need a paper for it? I'm sure they could issue one and take your money but what value would it have? IOW's they're doing you a favor and saving you money by not issuing one.

 

David, As for shinsa for kodogu there are four books used, the Shinsen Kinko Meikan by Senichiro Masumoto & Kenichi Kokubo (revised ed., 1998 I believe) and Toso Kodogu Meiji Taikei by Wakayama, three volumes. The point is that they don't need a huge reference library to kantei fittings. My Bona Fides: I worked as photographer to the NTHK 2006 Shinsa team in Chicago and supplied books to the NTHK Shinsa team in Tampa so they would not have to transport them from Japan.

[Ford Hallam]

Curran,

 

yes, I have grave reservations about Shinsa panels and their degree of subjectivity. However, in this case the tsuba can be judged on some fairly objective criteria. We're not looking, at this point, to ascribe a school or maker. We're merely talking about antique or modern. There's nothing complicated about it. If you and David want to consider it late Edo Kamiyoshi that's your business. My intent here was merely to point out the obvious to those who care to consider the evidence being examined for themselves.

 

And my comments about the Shinsa panel wasn't meant sarcastically at all.

 

I'm sorry but I do I know exactly what I'm looking at. My grasp of metal and the techniques and process used is based on over 30 years practical experience. Even from relatively poor images I can see enough to form a very clear picture of what I'm seeing. I could do a sample plate to demonstrate exactly what you see...even under magnification. It might be amazing to you, you have no practical experience in the making of this sort of ground in steel from which to analyse the texture or understand how it might have been made. I'm really not wanting to sound arrogant or rude but this is an objective fact.

You say you were looking "for overlap of a panel type punch"....why? That's not the tool used, you already pointed out you did see little Y shaped marks. That's the shape of the punch, and it's the way the metal distorts around it and subsequent reworkings of the ground that create the effect you're seeing.

 

I actually do know how to do this so it's pretty obvious to me and it's not very controlled or skillful. In fact, here's an offer for you, or anyone else who's able to take me up on it. For all of October and the first week of November I'll be in New Hampshire teaching. Come along and I'll show you how to create that texture in half an hour. You'll be amazed at the various changes that occur as you proceed and as the metal work hardens under repeated working. We'll be having an open week-end on the 19th and 20th October. email me for details.

 

You seem to feel we're off in La-La Land not learning a damn thing.

 

Actually Curran, I don't know the extent of your study. You recently seemed unable to distinguish between my own work and that of Kevin Adams though, so you lost brownie points from me on that one (no offence meant to Kevin btw :D ) But in this specific instance, our disagreement on this textured ground, you claim it is as controlled as really good nanako. I disagreed with your assessment and tried to demonstrate why by explaining the technique and pointing to a close up of the actual texture. That's all!

 

As for the rest, you say " I appreciate most of Ford's comments, though don't agree on some of the key points." but you leave me hanging as to what exactly those key points are and why you disagree. I really don't think there is any value in a discussion like this simply expressing disagreement without also offering some rationale.

 

Anyway, I've written more than enough now on a tsuba that makes my eyes hurt.

 

kind regards,

 

Ford

[Curran]

(1) “consider it late Edo Kamiyoshi” I did not. Best guess was shinsa would go that way, but I left it open ended, as it is an odd tsuba.

(2) Poor images – yes. Best I think David can do without flipping it up on a camera microscope at work. Given where he works, I wouldn't ask him to do that.

(3) “you have no practical experience” – 'bench worker' parent w/ the home shop, PA steel mill summers & Industrial Arts highschool is Too Blue Collar, yes? Years of industrial working marble, granite, etc is also not going to carry much weight. It is all one or two off and call me a hack, but the best I’ve got to work with in observation. I hobble it together with a lifetime of having a parent who was a painter, and few decades of that myself, so yes I do approach it mostly with a painter's set of perspective and that blue collar background in crudely working tons of harder material. Best I can do at present.

 

As to the Y shape and a small textured panel punch; you hold the tsuba to get a better sense of it, look under magnification, and then tell me. Until you actually look....I'll hold up my hick overalls while you're at it. I hesitated to say "Those punch marks are as controlled as skilled nanako", but had to go off visual memory from 6 months ago and do remember being very surprised. Looks a lot cruder in the macro. Best nanako? No. Surprising- yes. Different from what I've seen. Not sure what to conclude.

If you don't wanna look, fine- then beggar off with saying you've wasted too much time on this. You and I both have.

 

The only thing I take offense with is the distinguishing between your work and that of XXXXX. That is a bit low. I can 110% honestly say it was intention to be open ended to a clearly modern work with some of the quirks you’ve had and/or developed. I felt like throwing XXXXX's name up on stage. Didn't know you'd take that as debasement. Whether it is certain tool you use or some set of ratios and perspective you consciously or unconsciously put on. It shows up in your early tsuba from the 1990s, so I lean towards 'unconscious'. It screamed ‘Ford’. Without looking up the thread, I believe I ‘reserved opinion’ initially sense it was such a no brainer. Did it hurt to give XXXXX a little spotlight? He doesn’t self promote.

 

One of XXXXX's tsuba looks like you worked on it or influenced it greatly. Did you not? Bridging from the idea that a tsuba maybe had more that 1 person have worked on from beginning to end, is that not a possibility with David's tsuba? With David's tsuba hurting your eyes, you disparage XXXXX's work and David's tsuba in the same post.

 

Why in the world would you drag XXXXX into this? To put down my knowledge base? I'm already a Fool defending the more difficult side of what I see as a weak middle ground between an odd but interesting tsuba and a shinsa panel that probably quickly dismissed it. You have such skill and then inter-personally throw it into the mud at times like this.

[Pete Klein]

I must confess the tsuba by Sasaki Tsuneharu sama is beyond belief. This is what would have been presented to a Shogun and it is indicative of the absolute dedication of a master to his work. It is inspiration encapsulated.

[Ford Hallam]

Ok Curran, I've tried to be objective here but now you're actually being blatantly dishonest.

 

You misquoted me by carefully selecting only a small part of what I actually wrote and then rambled off with your irrelevant folksy story about blue collar origins etc.

 

Here's what I wrote and in bold is the snippet you selected to try and misrepresent what I wrote.

 

you have no practical experience in the making of this sort of ground in steel from which to analyse the texture or understand how it might have been made. I'm really not wanting to sound arrogant or rude but this is an objective fact.

 

Anyone with a basic grasp of written English will see how you've totally misrepresented what I was saying in a manner worthy of a political spin doctor.

 

I'll reiterate what I wrote also about respective knowledge and expertise.;

"Actually Curran, I don't know the extent of your study. You recently seemed unable to distinguish between my own work and that of Kevin Adams though, so you lost brownie points from me on that one (no offence meant to Kevin btw :D ) But in this specific instance, our disagreement on this textured ground, you claim it is as controlled as really good nanako. I disagreed with your assessment and tried to demonstrate why by explaining the technique and pointing to a close up of the actual texture. That's all!

My quip about Kevin and my own work was a joke, and I really don't think he would be put out by my comments. That you take offense at that was unintended, I had thought you see it as me actually have a laugh at my own expense. I rather suspect Kevin is somewhat amused also. And no, I don't mind giving any of the guys I've supported some spotlight (don't know where that little snipe comes from) why else would I bother doing what I can to teach and support them as I do? Just over a year ago Kevin was a guest in my home for 3 weeks while I worked with him in my studio sharing what I could.....for free. Does that sound like someone who is reluctant to share a spotlight with someone he's invested so much in? And for the record Kevin was the 7th such person to come and spend time in my studio, for free, and we're expecting out 8th guest in a couple of weeks.

 

I also think your attempt to suggest I was disparaging Kevin's work is pretty underhand. Kevin and I have a very open and honest relationship and it's really not for you to try and insinuate such unfounded nonsense that may otherwise damage our relationship merely to try and 'have a go at me' . And why exactly is 'self promotion' an issue for you? Both Kevin and I sell our work and need to promote what we do.

 

I've tried very hard to keep this discussion focussed on the object in front of us, and to deal with only the relevant issues. My quip about Kevin and my own work was intended as a light hearted and slightly self effacing joke (hence the reference to brownie points and the winking smiley...utterly lost on you evidently)....apparently you saw this as merely more evidence of my own personal failings and arrogance, and me throwing what abilities I do have into the mud. This sort of critisism in debating is called an 'ad hominem attack' and generally indicates the person using this tactic has essentially lost his argument and is now resorting to name calling.

 

Well that's your take on the matter.... I can't change what you think or feel but for myself the way you so dishonestly misquoted me and then went on to try and imply I was insulting Kevin forces me to recognise that there really is no point in having any sort of conversation with you. I had expected better.

 

p.s.

(1) “consider it late Edo Kamiyoshi” I did not. Best guess was shinsa would go that way, but I left it open ended, as it is an odd tsuba.

I think David's bold tsuba here would probably just get a general Kamiyoshi call.

I'm not confident whether it is Edo or Meiji, but I'm rather sure it isn't Showa or more recent.

Ok, you can consider it late Edo or Meiji Kamiyoshi then.

[Pete Klein]

A word of advice. Emulate Kunitaro sama.

[Brian]

I must confess the tsuba by Sasaki Tsuneharu sama is beyond belief. This is what would have been presented to a Shogun and it is indicative of the absolute dedication of a master to his work. It is inspiration encapsulated.

Couldn't agree more. And Kunitaro-san's explanation of what went into it and the background just blew my mind.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

Couldn't agree more. And Kunitaro-san's explanation of what went into it and the background just blew my mind.

 

Brian

 

Such is the shokunin ideal.....