ko-kagamishi tsuba

[Marius]

Gentlemen,

 

Allow me to post a few pictures of an interesting tsuba which used to be in Henry Wilson's collection. It has NBTHK origami to ko-kagamishi, is made of bronze and lacquered. There are a few theories concerning this tsuba, one of which is that it was conceived as a different object and converted into a tsuba. I can just attest that it was never a mirror, as both sides are identical.

 

Pictures are attached, including a scan of the description form the KTK catalogue where it was published.

 

Let me kick off the discussion with a picture of a similar tsuba, published by Robert Burawoy in his "The Picture Book of Old Tsuba". The scan shows not only the tsuba but Mr. Burawoys thoughts on it.

 

Please feel free to comment. I trust this item deserves to be discussed :-)

[christianmalterre]

Phantastic Tsuba!

Remarkable is equally the Tsuba in Monsieur Burawoy´s book-i really wonder where it is those days...

have to add that this entire "field" is not at all sufficiently researched yet-equally i may allow me to say,that i do fully agree with the maybe "vague" words Mr.Burawoy did write relating...

He certainly may had an very specific reason to do such

 

So to start:

Did you compare the Kanji on that Tsuba Nr. 17 (Picture book of old Tsuba)?

Certainly not Japanese!-equally not Chinese,too...

Now it get´s tricky!...LOL!

 

Christian

[Marius]

Interesting remark, Christian, thank you. Here is a blow-up of the ideogram/logogram on Mr. Burawoy's tsuba. I see it is the same symbol, all over again.

[hxv]

Mariusz,

 

Mr. Burawoy's tsuba is very beautiful. Whoever made this tsuba paid a lot of attention to fine details in the carving. Then, I wonder why the placements of the dots seem to be so ... random. There doesn't seem to be a pattern. It may be the camera angle, though I don't think so. Also, there are 17 of the symbols Christian pointed out (they seem to be identical to my eyes). That number must mean something, though I don't know the answer.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[ROKUJURO]

.....Whoever made this tsuba paid a lot of attention to fine details in the carving. Then, I wonder why the placements of the dots seem to be so ... random. There doesn't seem to be a pattern.....

Hoanh,

 

as far as I know these TSUBA are cast from bronze with a lost wax model. The modelling is probably a meticulous work, and the positioning of the tiny dots must be quite difficult, I think.

[christianmalterre]

O.K.

here´s an strong hint,as it seems to me,that obviously there are just very few who ever did inquire especially into this group yet...

 

Mine hint is K´un-lun-or "internet simplified" Kunlun-which does mean in simplified Chinese: 昆仑山; traditional Chinese: 崑崙山

As i but said already-it´s not an Chinese Character-rather and to get precise now-it´s Tibetan!

 

Wow! some several thousand miles apart from those days Kamakura Japan-Not?...

(as i said-it´s tricky,tricky,tricky)

The Kunlun in Tibet is former center of Mountain Taoism with several derivates...

Equally,and especially in this case,i think,it´s important to know that Tibetan Buddhism(comming from India)in those times(of course without any change also latter)was everything else than a "peaceful" religious sect...rather very contrary...(somehow like all religions)

 

Next hint?

 

Christian

[Marius]

Whoa!

 

We are discussing Mr. Burawoy's tsuba now, and while that is a not a bad thing per se, what I was really envisaging was to learn if Henry's (and Mr. Burawoy's) tsuba was indeed a tsuba when it was created? And was it Japanese or Chinese? And what do NMB members think of the theory that whoever made this tsuba was a mirror-maker?

[hxv]

Sorry Mariusz! I got carried away with the details. Regarding Henry's tsuba, I don't think it was ever a mirror. It was probably made to be a tsuba. Given the shape of both surfaces, front and back, I don't see (punt not intended) how it could have been used as a mirror. Just my 2-cents, though.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[christianmalterre]

Mariusz

"the messenger is quite most times the one shot"

 

"Think-Tank" may be motto here...

 

Phantastic Tsuba!(the your´s)

Since long an formidable threat!....

Christian

[Marius]

Dear Hoan,

Apologies, but you are stating the obvious, I am afraid :D

Yes, It was NEVER a mirror.

 

My point is - one might think it was NEVER a tsuba.

Do you see a seppa dai? I don't (which does not mean it is not a smaller seppa dai made to accomodate those slender earlier koshirae), and I see a nakago ana cut right in the middle of some decorative motif. The nakago-ana looks like it has been enlarged, though...

 

Chris,

I sincerely hope this tsuba is not a "threat" to anybody, although I'd love to see it as a threat to a collection I would love to see it as a treat for members of this board :D

[hxv]

Dear Mariusz,

 

My point is - it looks like it was NEVER a tsuba.

Do you see a seppa dai? I don't, and I see a nakago ana cut right in the middle of some decorative motif. That is not what tsuba makers would have done, would they.

 

I see what you mean. Total agreement!

 

Hoanh

[christianmalterre]

Hoanh

you deeply impress me now!

 

You made an very(!) fast but equally very Excellent(!) conclusion!

Great to have you on board!( )

(am getting old i think(LOL!)...as me here,it took me some nice longer research-time and some nice funds to spend,till me here, got up to your´s obvious level of seeing here immediately...Laugh!)

 

Christian

[BMarkhasin]

Mariusz,

 

I have had the privilege of handling the published Burawoy tsuba. I have to say that in my exposure to this type of tsuba, it is by far the best in class. I feel it is important to underscore that the term ‘kagamishi tsuba’ is misleading as it implies that these tsuba were products of professional mirror-makers. Although it may be the case that some professional kagamishi made tsuba throughout history, it was not the norm, and if any still exist, they constitute a miniscule proportion of the remaining works. I have seen only a handful of tsuba that I felt might have been made by a true mirror maker, and they would not have been considered high-quality pieces by discerning tosogu collectors.

 

The materials, design and execution, workmanship and overall feel of what we refer to as kagamishi tsuba, are reflective of the body of work of Kokinko tsubako, not true kagamishi. The overwhelming majority of kagamishi tsuba are made of yamagane, with a much smaller subset of very late pieces made of brass. I have also seen variations of true kagami made into tsuba (ie. pierced with nakago- and hitsu-ana), but I would not consider these legitimate tsuba.

 

The term 'kagamishi tsuba' should be applied to those ko-kinko tsuba which share clear / intentional design similarities with kagami, or in which the tsubako may have attempted to mimic the techniques of the kagamishi. The brass trash floating about on ebay, such as the sukashi shoki and oni should not be termed kagamishi either – those are an insult to kagamishi and tsubako alike.

 

Henry’s tsuba is indeed an excellent example of an early kagamishi tsuba (tsubako produced, but kagami inspired). It is made of yamagane, as is the Burawoy example. With these tsuba, you have to imagine them in ubu condition – they would have looked like low-profile double sided mirrors (sans the central boss for cord attachment), and instead designed to accommodate a single nakago-ana. Henry’s would have been a lovely piece early in life (…and is currently a lovely piece despite the later additions, in my opinion).

 

Best Regards,

Boris.

[christianmalterre]

Very excellent remark Boris!

Thank you for pointing this out!

 

Christian

[Henry Wilson]

 

I have had the privilege of handling the published Burawoy tsuba.

 

Hi Boris

 

Could you describe the ura of the tsuba?

 

Cheers

[BMarkhasin]

Henry,

I knew someone would ask that.... To be honest I just dont have a clear recollection of the details (it would have been bad form to ask to photograph it), but I believe it was not an exact copy of the illustrated side. Most of the high quality kagamishi tsuba exhibit differences between the two sides, whether in the shape of the rim, or the details of the central plate. Although different, the two sides would always be complementary.

 

Best,

Boris.

[christianmalterre]

equally this but,does not matter-as the fact of 2 sided "picturesque" Mirrors(if these ever were Mirrors(intended as Mirrors) in "Kagami-consense") is but such extremely rare to see...

...that in mine eyes..."they"(this extreme possibility) do/does not play any relevance per se to those both "japanised Tsuba" here...

 

Christian

[runagmc]

I'm completely ignorant of this subject, so my first question would be... what COULD these have been originally, before being converted for use as tsuba? Any ideas?

 

Could they have been used on polearms originally?

[christianmalterre]

LOL!

here we are...

 

certainly but not of Japanese oringin,equally not Kagami...far away from "Kagamishi"(what ever this word from early 20th century shall be)...

Laugh!

 

(Think Tank!)-is the motto...

(and do not shoot the messenger please!)

 

Christian

[runagmc]

Christian, what do mean by (Think Tank!)-is the motto...

 

and when you say don't shoot the messenger, I assume you are insinuating that some people are unwilling to give up the idea that these were made by mirror makers. Is this the case, or have I completely misunderstood? :?

[christianmalterre]

insinuating nothing at all!-Very certainly!

"Think-Tank" may be an European expression(?)-meaning "TO THINK ABOUT AN PROMINENT TOPIC IN ENCLOSED CIRCLE OF EQUAL MINDED/EQUAL INTERESTED"

(maybe there will be answers or some solution found?....)

no more-no less...

 

Christian

[BMarkhasin]

Adam,

 

These were made as proper tsuba originally, but by kokinko tsubako rather than kagamishi. Such tsuba would not have been used on spears etc.. - the broad nakago-ana seemingly accomodating a rectangular tang is coincidental. Most of the examples I have seen are 7.5-8 cm in size, but some of the earlier ones are quite a bit larger, 9-10cm. This large size likely reflects conformity to the over-sized blades prevalent during periods such as the Nambokucho.

 

Best,

Boris.

[John A Stuart]

I have long struggled with whether these type tsuba were intentionally made as such or some other thing adapted for this use. They have so much in common with kagami stylisation that it is easy to be lead in that direction. Then there is the tsuba cast in copper alloy that though still attributed to kagamishi have no concordance in stylisation. Perhaps these would be better described as 鑄る師 irushi tsuba. This would include the cast iron tsuba that are also controversial, but, I think a legitimate form. Back to the kagami style tsuba; when you look at the two holes in what would be the seppadai area, it almost forces one to consider that the original function was something else. There were so many objects in the panoply of religious, equestrian and just plain decorative objects that can be envisioned as the origin of these. Look at the medallions found on horse trappings or on the floats in matsuri. I am also of the opinion that they are Chinese in origin and had special meaning to the user who had them converted, again a religious significance. Also look at the significant difference between these and tachkanagushi tsuba made in copper. I do note that there were sword guards on Chinese swords of similar style, I shall look up an example in my books and post. These had square tang holes and would not interfere with the basic design. My musings only. John

[hxv]

I also wonder why the nakago ana is placed so asymmetrically relative to the two small holes. Looking at the tsuba gives no obvious clue.

 

Hoanh

[John A Stuart]

Chinese examples to ponder. John

[John A Stuart]

A close up.Excuse please my photography. So, looking at these an argument could be made for spoils from the Korean campaigns as being the source, perhaps. JohnJohn

[BMarkhasin]

The kozuka-ana and the two small holes are both independent much later additions -- Red Herrings, dont over-contemplate their meaning or importance. The important thing is the tsuba as it was in ubu condition. The renewed and greatly increased trade relations with mainland China during the 14th and early 15th centuries would have resulted in access to both ancient and contemporary Chinese mirrors, to use as design templates and inspiration. Mirror symbolism was very appealing to the superstitious bushi, often encompassing images and concepts such as longevity, prosperity, and more intangible imagery relating to Buddhist mythology and devotion. Religious influences, the desire for new imported ideas and objects, as well as the slow return to economic normalcy and resulting desire for more expressive kodogu would have been among the factors that fed the demand and resulting production of kagamishi tsuba during the Nambokucho and early Muromachi periods. This genre is fairly shortlived, and by the Sengoku period, kagamishi tsuba are generally not being produced.

 

Best,

Boris.

[Marius]

My comment on the two holes:

 

these are fairy typical in earlier sanmai tsuba (look at those three identical tsuba here: http://yakiba.com/Tsuba_Ko-Kinko_Group.htm - they all have these holes). In this particular case (Henry's "ko-kagamishi" tsuba) there could have been two plates attached to the tsuba, serving as a kind of o-seppa. But then again, they look fresh and have been drilled. So this theory might be spurious.

 

My comment on this item as a tsuba:

 

No Japanese tsuba was devoid of seppa-dai. In this tsuba we don't SEE seppa-dai, but it might have been there, around a smaller nakago-ana. Slender seppa-dai for slender earlier koshirae.

 

This seems a Japanese and not a Chinese tsuba. In Haynes' Gai So Shi we can admire a stunning tsuba (#002a). It is a Chinese copper tsuba with a lovely rim, beautiful carving of vines and a very narrow nakago-ana of hira-zukuri profile.This tsuba is so different from the ko-kagamishi.... I have attached a picture for your enjoyment

[John A Stuart]

Mariusz, a much clearer picture of the Chinese type (albeit the ana is altered) I posted. It is just one of my theories of this type. You have come to a similar conclusion then? John

[Marius]

John, the Chinese tsuba seem all oval, while the ko-kagamishi is round. They are small, the ko-kagamishi is comparably large. Also. the examples from your book cannot be compared to Mr. Haynes tsuba which is marvellous. But I digress...

 

I don't think that Henry's ko-kagamishi is a Chinese tsuba exported to Japan or looted during the Korean campaigns. From the point of view of its stylism, it is a Jin/Song dynasty item which is not at all similar to Chinese guards.

 

 

I think Henry should chime in, as he had made some very interesting remarks, when we were discussing this tsuba privately.

 

Henry, it is about time to share your thoughts here :-)