Jacques D. Posted February 21, 2013 Report Posted February 21, 2013 Hi, I've asked a friend of mine who is member of the NBTHK to ask them about star stamped swords. Below the answer by the NBTHK.
J Reid Posted February 21, 2013 Report Posted February 21, 2013 Interesting! Yet... How contradicting.
Jiro49 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Posted February 21, 2013 Ok, I have no dog in this fight but I find the subject interesting. My only question is why the sentence finished with most? As in a few will, maybe due to connections or what not.. Of course there are no absolutes.. Still curious none the less.
J Reid Posted February 21, 2013 Report Posted February 21, 2013 So basically they confirm that even though its a ww2 sword, as long as made traditionally, it has a high chance on passing examination. But if a star stamped blade is being imported into Japan for papering, there is a good chance it won't even make it inside..? So having a star stamped blade already in Japan has a good chance of passing shinsa if it doesnt have obvious faults?
Bruno Posted February 21, 2013 Report Posted February 21, 2013 By reading the letter, it seems the NBTHK member does not know that star stamped nakago means traditionnal gendaito. I understand for him it is just a stamped nakago so it is a showato thus cannot be accepted in Japan. I wonder if NBTHK guys in Japan know gendaito as well as they know older swords. I doubt it.
Jean Posted February 21, 2013 Report Posted February 21, 2013 Full of contradiction. Star stamped as traditionnaly made have all chances to be papered if in Japan but cannot be imported as star stamped. It would be interesting to have a copy of the original letter sent to NBTHK Sigmund, it is time for you to step in
cabowen Posted February 21, 2013 Report Posted February 21, 2013 The contradictory nature of the NBTHK response makes it clear the author is not familiar with star stamped swords nor the finer points of the registration law. We know star stamped swords are made with tanren, we know they are able to be imported and we know they have received Hozon papers. I have imported dozens of star stamped blades into Japan. Whether a sword is licensed is the sole decision of the licensing shinsa team. The Ministry of Education, which is responsible for licensing, contracts with private parties to serve as shinsa members on the licensing shinsa team. It has nothing to do with the NBTHK/NTHK or their shinsa. It is a shinsa to decide if the sword has "artistic value"-all that is required to be licensed (necessary for sword to be imported). I have several very good friends that are shinsa'in on the licensing shinsa teams and have asked them all this question. They have all said they judge each sword individually, stamps have nothing to do with it. There is nothing in the law that says anything about stamps or period of manufacture; it says that swords must simply have "artistic value". While the NBTHK are experts in their field (old swords) they are not at the front of the pack when it comes to modern era swords, nor are they experts in the laws regarding registration. Recent events prove that.
mdiddy Posted February 21, 2013 Report Posted February 21, 2013 it says that swords must simply have "artistic value". Maybe not all star-stamped swords are able to be licensed because they lack "artistic value". The author of the letter says as much by saying 'most' instead of 'all' in his last sentence, acknowledging the system is not foolproof and some do get licensed. There is a wide range of yet-to-be determined artistic quality of star-stamped RJT swords. Kazu-uchi mono are traditionally made too after all.
cabowen Posted February 22, 2013 Report Posted February 22, 2013 Maybe not all star-stamped swords are able to be licensed because they lack "artistic value". The author of the letter says as much by saying 'most' instead of 'all' in his last sentence, acknowledging the system is not foolproof and some do get licensed. There is a wide range of yet-to-be determined artistic quality of star-stamped RJT swords. Kazu-uchi mono are traditionally made too after all. Ultimately, the decision to license or not is left to each prefecture's Board of Education shinsa team. Generally speaking, they license any Japanese sword that has hada and a water quenched hamon. They assume if it is forged and quenched, it is handmade and therefore has some "artistic value". The only swords I have seen refused are those that are clearly showa-to. And I have even seen a few of those licensed. Remember that the star is an acceptance stamp placed after a very rigorous inspection. Hagire and the like resulted in failure. Swords with hagire and other flaws do however still receive a license. The standards for "artistic value" would seem to be quite low.
mdiddy Posted February 22, 2013 Report Posted February 22, 2013 The only swords I have seen refused are those that are clearly showa-to. And I have even seen a few of those licensed. The NBTHK official mentions star stamps and western steel usage, but doesn't mention Showa or Seki stamps much less show a clear distinction between Showato and Gendaito in his letter. Its seems like the NBTHK official may not know a Star stamp from a Showa stamp. By reading the letter, it seems the NBTHK member does not know that star stamped nakago means traditionnal gendaito. I agree. Given the Japanese market, I expect the rarity in Japan of any stamps on swords contributes to a lack of robust knowledge on which stamps mean what. We are spoiled to have access to so many Showato! And it's not as if the Japanese dealers didn't have the opportunity to buy in bulk for dirt cheap large quantities of Showato and RJT blades throughout the 70's and 80's.
takakage Posted February 22, 2013 Report Posted February 22, 2013 By reading the letter, it seems the NBTHK member does not know that star stamped nakago means traditionnal gendaito. I understand for him it is just a stamped nakago so it is a showato thus cannot be accepted in Japan.. I will do my best Bruno........ viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14822&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=star+stamp NBTHK HINOHARA Daï Research Department St ........, 28 th january2013 Member 3...... ........ Patrick Hello Dear Sir , The mei behind of Akihira has got a star stamp (rikugun jumei tosho) on the nakago and is hozon. Do you think possible all rikugun jumei tosho blades could be hozon too ? Thanks a lot for your help and answer. Kind regards.
george trotter Posted February 22, 2013 Report Posted February 22, 2013 Hi Jacques, This seems to be a new discussion to your last thread (what does the star stamp mean?). This one is asking us to comment on the answers to unknown questions in a piece of paper that says NBTHK on the top...no signature...no seal...nothing. In your previous star-stamp thread I remember you insisted that members must post a genuine NBTHK paper showing an oshigata with a star stamp and mei ...only this would prove to you that star stamp swords get papers. This was done for you, (but I don't remember that you made any reply?). Well...proof is important to us also. Can I respectfully ask you to prove that this letter is genuine?..(I see no signature, seal etc). Once you have done that we can discuss the matter you posted. Thanks,
Jean Posted February 22, 2013 Report Posted February 22, 2013 George, You are too fast on the draw. Takakage has just posted the letter above your post :D
Jacques D. Posted February 22, 2013 Author Report Posted February 22, 2013 Hi, I see each one has his proper reading of the letter. It doesn't surprise me. In my understanding they say that you can try submitting a sword and never that it will obtain hozon. The contradictory nature of the NBTHK response makes it clear the author is not familiar with star stamped swords nor the finer points of the registration law. We know star stamped swords are made with tanren, we know they are able to be imported and we know they have received Hozon papers. It is your opinion and nothing else. Nobody can say with certainty all star stamped sword were entirely traditionally made. All that we know is RJT were allowed an amount of tamahagane each month (not that they did with it). That is my last words on that subject. I've a strong interest in Nihontô swords but not in militaria and star stamped swords are militaria (gunto). ps Japanese people rarely say things directly, man must be able to read what it is said beyond the words. ps 2 man sould read the Modern Japanese smords and swordsmiths (kapp and Y.Y.) page 69, 70, 71,and 72. It's very instructive.
george trotter Posted February 22, 2013 Report Posted February 22, 2013 Jacques, It is OK to believe what you believe...it is even ok even to say that only you are right. But it is not ok to say all evidence against you is wrong...you must prove it. Good night.
takakage Posted February 22, 2013 Report Posted February 22, 2013 Time to lock this post again.......... Nb: Every body can be a member of the NBTHK, you have to pay the fees, no more...Be a member is not to be a skill full expert....And i am not a expert. Have a nice day.
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