Help please. Katate uchi or wakizashi? Sue soshu or other?

[Blundemo]

Hi everyone, I'm new to posting however I'm not new to the site. Lots of good information here. As I'm still a novice, I'm seeking out opinions more knowledgeable than mine. I bought this sword with the intent of studying it before releasing it out into the wild (ebay or other auction site). Looks like Muramasa den at first glance, but I dismissed that and thought it belonged to Shitahara school because some characteristics don't add up with Sengo school. However, upon examination of Jihada, it doesn't look like Shitahara either (there are no "Shitahara Rings"). Would appreciate other forum members thoughts.

 

A few stats:

 

Hamon is suhuga with nioi and ko-nie. Hard to determine which is the more dominant over the other, the blade is in old polish, so it's difficult to see. Nioiguchi is tight. It is not a perfect suguha and there are many ashi and yo...difficult to see anything else.

 

I think there is shirake utsuri. Hard to tell.

 

Nagasa is 21 inches long

 

Mune is Iori

 

Hada is Itame with ji-nie. This was very difficult to photograph...sorry for my bad pictures.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

Branson L.

[takakage]

Hi,

 

All shitahara blades don't have uzumaki hada......I think your blade is most likely a shitahara den,strong suguta, nakago, yasuri mei, thin sugu ha in ko nie...

[leo]

Hi, Branson,

"Yamashiro" is also an option, as this tradition worked throughout the Edo period. In connection with the tanago-bara this might be the least dangerous definition as most of these schools also worked in other styles and many works had little to do with the original Koto Yamashiro tradition.

 

A good bet stylewise would be Hizen, as this school liked to copy Koto Yamashiro smiths. The slight tanago-bara shape could have been added for fun or in the process of a severe shortening from a much longer Katana.

 

If you sell it on Ebay or elsewhere, the description should include a big "maybe" or "could be" anyway , unless an expert gives you a precise kantei.

 

Best,

[Blundemo]

Thanks for the opinions. Shitahara school is probably more likely because the blade doesn't appear to be shortened. I don't know much about that school though, because there isn't much information I've found available. The blade is healthy, but there are some pretty bad kizu here and there, as can be seen if you zoom in on the photos. It's very well balanced and feels compact with shallow niku. The blade looks and feels like late Koto, not Shinto...but again, I'm not an expert in these things, so I don't know.

 

Here's a better picture of Jihada. Much better results by the window if you ask me.

 

[Jean]

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/ ... &view=next

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/tokai8.htm

 

From Nihonto.ca:

Shitahara school roots reach back into Daiei era (early 16th century) with the regarded founder, Chikashige, who was a student of Soshu Tsunahiro in Odawara. Musashi province was a relatively remote region at this time, and the establishment of the school makes it the only indigenous school in Musashi (aka: Bushu) of the koto period. After the seating of the shogunate in Edo by Tokugawa Iyeyasu sword smiths from other regions arrived to fill the expanding demand for swords and thrive in rapidly expanding economic boom. Shitahara remained there with a few notable smiths continuing to work in their Soshu based backgrounds.

[cabowen]

Shitahara, Sengo, or another sue Soshu group (Odawara) is a good bet. If I was to play the odds, I would put my money on Shitahara.

[Blundemo]

Jean, thank you for the links for more info. The blade definitely has all the characteristics of the Shitahara (Shimohara) school minus the mokume uzumaki hada. Looking at the hamon on this sword from the bottom up is quite pleasing. The nioiguchi is very tight and with good brightness, plus the irregularity of the suguha makes it look like a lightning bolt.

 

I have to add one discovery I've made today and would like some help on this. I carefully examined this blades nakago and noticed something abnormal. This swords tang is abnormally thin when compared to the motohaba area. I've never seen this on any other sword, it's usually the other way around, particularly with Koto blades. It feels like steel has been removed by filing. The nakago also doesn't feel 'soft' like on aged Koto swords, it feels like rough like on Shinshinto swords.

 

Here's how I can describe it: When holding the blade edge up and looking down from the hamachi, there is an initial thickness that pertains to the blade. When continuing to look down the nakago, it thins out. Here are pictures:

 

Ha side:

 

Mune side:

 

and unless my eyes are tricking me...is that a MURA character?

 

It's very faint and only shows up if you hold it to the light a certain way. Possibly fake signature removed by filing?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

The nioiguchi is very tight and with good brightness

 

Unusual for that school.

[Blundemo]

Hi,

 

 

Unusual for that school.

 

Hi and yes, I'm not still not settled on Shitahara den. The Jigane looks whitish, not 'dark' as Shitahara is described. But I don't think it is Sengo school either. Sengo school made wide mihaba and thin kasane with mitsumune and the kissaki looks very sharp, not rounded fukura. Motohaba for this sword is 3-3.1 cm. I don't know how to measure Kasane. I've never seen a Sengo blade in suguha without some sort of Notare or Gunome variation to it

[Jean]

Don't focus on the whitish/dark jigane, it is only for the experts who have seen hundred of swords and able to compare them side by side. Furthermore, it depends on the polish. I had the opportunity to have swords from northern province and south province side by side and this question of jigane is far from being evident.

[mdiddy]

I see a Shinto wakizashi with maybe a reshaped nakago or slightly machi okuri. Not much makes me think of Shitahara though. How about Bungo?

[Blundemo]

Jean, in reference to Jigane I meant whitish as in the blade steel looked light gray in color as opposed to a 'dark' steel associated with shitahara den. Kesho polish can make this very difficult to see, but the blade is out of polish so it's easier to see the real face. Shirake Utsuri can also contribute to the lighter color. But again, I don't really know. I've never held and examined a Shitahara sword. I paid little for the sword and although I think it's a good sword besides it's kizu, I don't think it's worth restoring/shinsa which is why I'm asking for opinions here.

[mdiddy]

But again, I don't really know. I've never held and examined a Shitahara sword.

 

What led you to Shitahara to start?

[Blundemo]

 

What led you to Shitahara to start?

 

The similarity to Sengo school.

 

Edit: Also if you turn one of the pictures around in post #1, you'll notice the blade has a slight fumbari. What made you reach the conclusion that the blade is Shinto?

[mdiddy]

The similarity to Sengo school.

 

What similarities do you see with Sengo school? Just the nakago?

 

When I think of a Sengo school blade that is not katana length, I think of this:

[Blundemo]

Hi Mdiddy,

 

Please read about "Katate Uchi". This is what I asking about in my title and what I presumed the blade to be. These are sengoku era one handed Daito.

 

Hiromasa: http://www.shibuiswords.com/hiromasa.htm

 

Shodai muramasa: http://www.shibuiswords.com/mmasa.htm

 

The nakago, Kitae and Yasurimei(now questionable) are similar to Sengo school but missing some characteristics like Mitsumune, hamon and etc.

[mdiddy]

What made you reach the conclusion that the blade is Shinto?

 

1. Ubu, ha-watari of 53-54cm

 

2. Little to no sori, straight like Shinto

 

3. Looks like typical early Edo wakizashi

 

Consider the lack of sori in your sword as compared to the examples in the two links you share. Notice how the older blades have deeper sori. I think this is more in line with expectations of Muromachi period katate-uchi.

 

but missing some characteristics like Mitsumune, hamon and etc

 

Hamon is a pretty big missing characteristic. But I do not know Sengo school well enough to comment about suguha examples. Kokan Nagayama does not mention the possibility in his book. However, adding sugata to the list of missing characteristics should start pointing us to a later time period in my opinion.

[mdiddy]

you'll notice the blade has a slight fumbari

 

Fumbari is usually a little more pronounced I think. Here is a good example of fumbari: http://www.sho-shin.com/biz3.htm

[Blundemo]

Hi Mdiddy,

 

If you mean Edo era Kanbun shape, this blade is nothing like that. Those are thicker in Kasane and have a wider mihaba with greater taper toward the monouchi. They feel like choppers. Few blades from that era are done in Nioi and most are in nie-deki. Fumbari is more pronounced in Early koto era and it declines in late koto. Fumbari is also largely dictated by the health of the blade and whether it is Ubu or O-suriage.

[Blundemo]

Hamon is a pretty big missing characteristic.

 

Shitahara den is described as making suguha hamon which is why I listed them.

[mdiddy]

Few blades from that era are done in Nioi and most are in nie-deki.

 

Per Kokan Nagayama, Bungo swordsmiths tempered in nioi deki and nie are seen sporadically. See here: http://www.nihonto.com/abtartbungo.html. Bungo school thrived in Edo period.

 

Shitahara den is described as making suguha hamon which is why I listed them.

 

Many, many, many schools made suguha hamon. Why not consider some of them too, particularly if the kantei point of Shitahara style O-hada is not present?

[Lance]

Hi, Branson,

"Yamashiro" is also an option, as this tradition worked throughout the Edo period. In connection with the tanago-bara this might be the least dangerous definition as most of these schools also worked in other styles and many works had little to do with the original Koto Yamashiro tradition.

 

 

I think late Yamashiro (Heianjo) might be a good avenue to look into, They shared some similarities to Ise Sengo and Mino school. Had these links below saved from when researching a Heianjo Yoshifusa tanto I used to have.

http://www.sho-shin.com/heianjo.html

http://www.sho-shin.com/kurama.htm

 

Regards,

Lance

 

Regards,

Lance

[Blundemo]

 

Many, many, many schools made suguha hamon. Why not consider them too

 

As I just said in previous posts, this blade resembled Sengo school without their trademark hamon so I gravitated toward Shitahara.

 

Lance, Yamashiro is a possibility but age is uncertain. Besides the shape and style, if the blade was shinto or later wouldn't the mekugi ana be drilled?

[Lance]

I don't think it's Shinto, when I suggested later smiths from the two links posted I meant the Koto smiths in the links I posted who were working during the 1500's.

 

Regards,

Lance

[mdiddy]

If you mean Edo era Kanbun shape, this blade is nothing like that.

 

I don't think it's Shinto, when I suggested later smiths from the two links posted I meant the Koto smiths in the links I posted who were working during the 1500's.

 

Per the blades in the sample links, the blade in question has nothing to do with katate-uchi or Sengoku timeframe based on sugata and sori:

[mdiddy]

As I just said in previous posts, this blade resembled Sengo school without their trademark hamon so I gravitated toward Shitahara.

 

Based on the observations you listed - iori mune, 21 inches long, itame hada, suguha hamon, nioi-deki - the only resemblance to Sengo is that it is nihonto. These observations describe many, many, many schools and swordsmiths.

 

Without a Sengo connection and trying to back into an answer from it, how could you arrive at a Shitahara kantei based only on your observations??

[Blundemo]

Based on the observations you listed - iori mune, 21 inches long, itame hada, suguha hamon, nioi-deki - the only resemblance to Sengo is that it is nihonto. These observations describe many, many, many schools and swordsmiths.

 

Without a Sengo connection and trying to back into an answer from it, how could you arrive at a Shitahara kantei based only on your observations??

 

Hi, you're very insistent that the blade is Shinto. I can tell you from my own knowledge and my handling of the sword that it is most likely not the case. I say "most likely" because there are no clear absolutes with this subject. Both Mekugi-ana have recessed metal on both sides meaning they were punched, not drilled. The kasane is not thick like Kanbun era Bungo swords, it's thin to moderate. There is not much taper and sori is shallow. Not all muromachi blades have great sori. The blade niku is shallow and the nakago is tanago-bara that doesn't appear to be "reshaped", but probably filed down to remove a signature. Running Itame hada with jinie and chikei finally leads me to a Sue-Soshu school in the late koto period.

 

But anyway this topic has gone on longer than I expected. The blade isn't a treasure, it's a mere study piece that I found interesting and wanted more info about. The agreed upon opinion in this thread is Sue-Soshu as I had expected before I purchased it. Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

 

Best,

[mdiddy]

Hi, you're very insistent that the blade is Shinto

And you are very insistent that the blade is Sue-Soshu.

 

The kasane is not thick like Kanbun era Bungo swords, it's thin to moderate.

Could the blade not be polished down? Not all Kanbun era Bungo swords have thick kasane. As you say there are no clear absolutes.

 

There is not much taper and sori is shallow.

Like a Shinto wakizashi??

 

Not all muromachi blades have great sori.

Show me an ubu example. Your previous examples to justify Sue-Soshu school had great sori.

 

Running Itame hada with jinie and chikei finally leads me to a Sue-Soshu school in the late koto period.

Many schools have running itame hada with jinie and chikei. Kantei is meant to separate not aggregate. What sets this blade apart that confirms it is Sue-Soshu? It certainly is not hamon, it is not sugata, it is not even hada. So only the not-so-agreed upon opinion of this thread confirms it is Sue-Soshu?

[runagmc]

Here's a Shinto Bungo Takada wakizashi added to the comparison pic...

[cabowen]

The blade appears to have a rather strong funbari- is this the case or is it just the photos?