Rule Number 1 When Buying Swords is

[cabowen]

You don't get what you don't pay for...

 

When you are bottom feeding in the $300-$500 bin, you are not going to get treasure, 99.9999% of the time. The percentage increases further when you are buying from an experienced seller.

 

There is a reason, perhaps several, why a sword is for sale at $300, $500, or even maybe $1000. You aren't getting a flawless blade or a good signature, or good condition- maybe none of the above.

 

I completely support full disclosure when buying and selling. Buyers likewise should use common sense and that part of their brain where reality resides.

 

I was rather surprised, after posting a few cheap blades for sale, at many of the replies I got...I realize $300 is a lot of money to some people. But as a potential buyer, please understand the basic truth outlined above. It will save all parties a lot of time.

[Jean]

I fully agree with you Chris, but hard to share experience with a lot people still believing in Santie (I have already written a few words about him. He is the Evil Twin of good ol' beardy Santa Claus.) :D

[sanjuro]

A somewhat paraphrased quote from a collector friend of mine, now deceased.

 

Those new to the world of nihonto collecting are consumed by a lust to own, to touch a real nihonto and they place a lower value on the gratification of their lust than an experienced collector who suffers no less from the same lust but knows better the true price of it.

[leo]

"Feeding on the Bottom of the Bin" . Did not know that one, Chris. Hits the point though. I get mails and pictures all the time, which is ok., if it weren´t for the countless pictures of fakes. Unfortunately some of these people are completely immune to advice and think they will find a picasso in the attic(or on Ebay)

 

Now I lean towards sending them a link to the NMB.

 

Luckily there are quite a few who are infected by the Nihonto virus, even through a cheap, but genuine sword and will eventually develop into serious collectors.

 

Best

[Ken-Hawaii]

  Quote

Luckily there are quite a few who are infected by the Nihonto virus, even through a cheap, but genuine sword and will eventually develop into serious collectors.

 

That's actually a good point, Martin. We've all been bemoaning the problem of not seeing many new collectors & being afraid that our interests will die out. I've seen at least a baker's dozen of newbies who have paid bottom dollar for a piece of junk, but who are now members of our sword society & studying & collecting very serious Nihonto. So I'm no longer sure that "feeding on the bottom of the bin" is necessarily a bad thing for keeping our love of Nihonto alive. Sure, it makes a lot more sense for them to do some studying & not waste their money, but if their initial mistake gets them signed up with NMB & interested enough to continue their studies, I'm all for their experiencing "Santie!"

 

Ken

[Jean]

Ken,

 

I totally agree as long as they don't come moaning and whinning on the Board. I don't want NMB to have any part of it.

[Peter Bleed]

Another interesting thread.Thank you Chris,

Let me say that "feeding from the bottom" is the only thing that some of of us can afford. It also can be great fun. It can also pay off. BUT it requires study, basic knowledge, and networking.

I suggest that bottom feeders remember two things

1. You have to kiss a lot of frogs to meet a prince.

and

2. Even a blind pig can find a truffle, but one with one eye and friends will do better.

Peter

[John A Stuart]

Haaaa! Peter; like the blind pig you have to have a nose for it. Nosing around e-bay is not the sweetest field. These days I find more satisfaction seeing swords and fittings that I will never be in a position to buy. John

[Ted Tenold]

First knowing what a truffle smells and looks like is pretty important too.

[hybridfiat]

Old Ugandan saying: "common sense is only common to those who have it".

It is very difficult to see the future, therefore novice collectors like myself often do not see the prospect of buying more than one sword. Once the bug has bitten we have a sword that has stretched our budget and left us unable to afford a better sword without parting with the first. This is hard for some to do. Consequently we by a cheaper lower quality sword than we should to satisfy the craving and thereby work ourselves into a worse position.

Ive sold my first sword and the second and inteand to save for a good one. But the lesson took a while to sink in.

Remember, many do not have a collector nearby who is willing to show their collection and to encourage patience, (seeing them in the flesh is an irreplacable experience).

[cabowen]

The point of my post was not to have unreasonable expectations. When I posted a sword for sale at $300 and described it as in rough condition, as is, etc., and had people ask me if I would guarantee hozon papers and the mei, that it had no flaws, etc., I had to wonder if I had mistakenly added a zero to the price...Let's be real: $300 doesn't buy you any guarantees.

[Adrian]

Well, I wasn't one of them :D (if anyone wonders )

 

This idea that you could get a real bargain from an experienced seller that knows way more then you do is indeed mind-boggling. All you need to do is use common sense.

 

P.S. Sometime those who hope to buy national treasure for $300 are not poor at all.

[paulb]

Actually Adrian I think the only likely place you will get a real bargain is from an experienced seller. By that I am not asuggesting you will buy a national treasure that they have failed to notice but an experienced collector understands the current market worth of something and prices accordingly.

Equally when longer serving collectors want to buy something it often means they need to sell stuff. It then becomes a balance between how much they want the new thing and how much they are prepared to sacrifice in selling something to achieve their goal. Often they are trying to achieve break even on what they are selling rather than needing a large profit.

There have been many swords sold on this site (and yes some have been mine so my opinion is not totally unbiased) where the seller has sold at or below their purchase price to facilitate a new buy. So I would suggest if you substitute "value for money" for bargain then an experienced seller will give you the best deal 99 times out of 100.

Chris

you have my sympathy regarding your low end sales. In my recent sales efforts (soon to be re-started) I had more questions and requests for images, details about the boshi etc etc on blades that were a couple of hundred dollars than I did on those priced at several thousand.

I guess in all of us the hunter is still turned on and the search for the national treaure in a boot sale continues to a greater or lesser extent.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

  Quote

Actually Adrian I think the only likely place you will get a real bargain is from an experienced seller

 

I've often seen swords bought in Japan and offered for sale on western sites with a substantial increase.

 

My first rule for buying sword is : avoid internet, buy sword "in hand".

[paulb]

Hi Jacques

so have I but I am not sure what your point is?

I am not suggesting that very experienced seller is selling at cost (proffessional dealers need to make a living too) what I am saying is you are more likely to get value for money from longer term collecors and established dealers than you are from Ebay.

 

sorry Jacques I didnt see your second sentence. I would a gree with you 100% but unfotunately that is not always possible. In fact I have not bought a sword from a UK arms fair for more than 15 years, the quality of swords seen at fairs here is generally far below what can be seen from on line sellers (there are always exceptions) Unfortunately the pricing doesnt reflect this

[Adrian]

  paulb said:

Actually Adrian I think the only likely place you will get a real bargain is from an experienced seller. By that I am not asuggesting you will buy a national treasure that they have failed to notice but an experienced collector understands the current market worth of something and prices accordingly.

 

But that's not going to be a real bargain, just an item correctly priced

 

 

 

  paulb said:

Equally when longer serving collectors want to buy something it often means they need to sell stuff. It then becomes a balance between how much they want the new thing and how much they are prepared to sacrifice in selling something to achieve their goal. Often they are trying to achieve break even on what they are selling rather than needing a large profit.

There have been many swords sold on this site (and yes some have been mine so my opinion is not totally unbiased) where the seller has sold at or below their purchase price to facilitate a new buy. So I would suggest if you substitute "value for money" for bargain then an experienced seller will give you the best deal 99 times out of 100.

 

Here we completelly agree. But I was talking about something else, namelly the "treasure hunt" trough the inventory of experienced collectors.

(hoping that a $300 blade purchased from an experienced collector/dealer would make Hozon and so on)

[Marius]

  Adrian said:

(hoping that a $300 blade purchased from an experienced collector/dealer would make Hozon and so on)

 

Even a $300 blade can make Hozon, which is a paper confirming the item is genuine and not a fake (and only that). You will just need to spend $,$$$ on it (polishing, shinsa costs, etc). I make the assumption that a $300 blade is out of polish.

[Adrian]

Mariusz, what I ment was making Hozon "as is", or better said as it was when purchased for 300$ from an experienced collector.

 

Anyway, I think what I previously said might be misinterpreted a bit. The general idea was that you cannot get real bargains (as in severelly undervalued) when you're a beginner purchasing from an experienced collector. NOT that you wouldn't be safer and more satisfied with the item on the long run if you decide to buy a correctly priced item from an experienced collector.

[Marius]

  Adrian said:

Mariusz, what I ment was making Hozon "as is", or better said as it was when purchased for 300$ from an experienced collector.

 

Adrian, I don't think you will get a polished blade for $300. And polish (even an old one) is necessary to obtain Hozon.

 

Have a look at the criteria:

 

http://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/rank_criteria.php

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shi ... dards.html

[cisco-san]

  cabowen said:

The point of my post was not to have unreasonable expectations. When I posted a sword for sale at $300 and described it as in rough condition, as is, etc., and had people ask me if I would guarantee hozon papers and the mei, that it had no flaws, etc., I had to wonder if I had mistakenly added a zero to the price...Let's be real: $300 doesn't buy you any guarantees.

Hello Chris,

I was one of the guys who contacted you and and it was not my intention to waste your time - if so, please apologize .

My intention was to buy a project blade and maybe after studying the blade and maybe investing some money to have a papered blade (therefore I asked for your opinion of the mei).

Again, sorry

Klaus

P.S. Yes, you are right, even 300,- USD are a lot of money (for me) to throw out of the window!

[Marius]

  cisco-san said:

My intention was to buy a project blade and maybe after studying the blade

 

Klaus,

 

there is nothing to "study" in a "project blade" (I assume that by "project blade) you mean one which is out of polish ). You need to buy a polished sword, otherwise you will not see the hada, the hamon and activities (if there are any).

[Adrian]

  mariuszk said:

 

Adrian, I don't think you will get a polished blade for $300. And polish (even an old one) is necessary to obtain Hozon.

 

Have a look at the criteria:

 

http://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/rank_criteria.php

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shi ... dards.html

 

 

Mariusz, I don't think it either, that's why I wrote this:

 

  Adrian said:

Here we completelly agree. But I was talking about something else, namelly the "treasure hunt" trough the inventory of experienced collectors.

(hoping that a $300 blade purchased from an experienced collector/dealer would make Hozon and so on)

[cisco-san]

  mariuszk said:

 

Klaus,

 

there is nothing to "study" in a "project blade" (I assume that by "project blade) you mean one which is out of polish ). You need to buy a polished sword, otherwise you will not see the hada, the hamon and activities (if there are any).

Thanks Mariusz, I know that on "out of polish" blade almost nothing can be seen. Anyway, I thought this could be a chance to buy a blade from Chris (one of the most experienced guys here)......

[sanjuro]

Klaus.

 

Please dont think I'm ganging up on you here, But I think that you are missing the point. If a blade is out of polish even though that blade is owned by Chris, the seller is no more able to see beneath the blades poor or degraded surface condition than any one else. This is why only polished blades are admitted to shinsa. A project blade is a risk, and at $300 you arent getting anything that even when polished, can be a certainty of any kind of quality. I think its pretty fair to say that if there was any certainty of quality lying dormant beneath the accumulated scratches and crud of a couple of hundred years then the price from any educated seller would reflect that certainty.

 

To other hopefuls I would stress that there is really no such thing as a bargain 'put down the money and run' deal to be had from any seller despite a belief on the part of some posters to the contrary. Some sellers may take a loss against what they paid for the sword as has been outlined, but you are not going to literally steal a sword of quality from under the nose of someone who knows what the value of that blade is. Hope for an idiot seller if you wish, but you will grow old in the hope of one day picking up a sleeper. Be prepared to pay what a sword is worth rather than hope in vain for intervention from the gods of nihonto just because you either cant afford, or wont pay, for quality.

[Adrian]

Not to mention that, even if you have really dumb luck with a sword, that luck would have been probably invested in something else. I tend to believe that no one has unlimited luck . Quoting myself here :

 

  Adrian said:

After watching nihonto items on ebay for a few weeks I'm pretty sure that the only way for someone who's not an expert to get a real bargain is if a honest seller who knows absolutelly nothing about nihonto makes some big mistakes when listing the item. (such as 1. low buy it now on a genuine item in relativelly good condition or 2. listing the item in the wrong cathegory with little to no photos and a useless description) Even in this case one would need dumb luck in order to "score" as in first scenario you'd need to be the first person with some nihonto knowledge that sees the item and in the second scenario you'd need to be browsing the wrong cathegory, figure out that the item might be nihonto, get some photos from the seller and be the only one doing it.

And, in the end, even if you "score" you are just taking advantage of someone's ignorance and need for money.

 

However, the question is if you couldn't use all that time to make money and buy a good sword from a reputable seller. Or from a sword show, with an expert frind as a helper (or some similar scenario involving live auctions and so on). There may be bargain on ebay every now and then, but the time and effort invested in hunting them will probably be too much.

 

Personally I'd rather choose to be lucky with my life, family, health and generally speaking the things that really matter rather then scoring on ebay, winning at the lottery and so on.

[cabowen]

  cisco-san said:

I was one of the guys who contacted you and and it was not my intention to waste your time - if so, please apologize .

 

 

No need to apologize, you did not waste my time....

 

But do give some thought to what your goals and expectations are when shopping at the $300 level.

 

Again, I appreciate your interest.

[Alex A]

I dont know how many times ive read on here that ebay is a trap, there as been 2 recent posts on here with folk buying blades with kizu that where not included in the write up. I understand why some experienced nihonto collectors want to try there luck, but i bet 8 times out of 10 they wish they hadnt bothered. If you just want a wall hanger, a genuine blade, with kizu etc, and you pay $500 for it then thats fine, as long as thats all you want from it, dont expect a bargain for that price. You may come across a treasure in the rough on ebay from time to time (as often as halleys comet ), but you can guarentee theres a lot more folk than you with there eyes on it. If you dont want any regrets, buy something you can live with or even better, something of reasonable quality.

Alex.

[drbvac]

THE rule for buying anything is BUYER BEWARE - hasn't changed since round rocks were trades for fire. E-bay is a minefield and there has been such an expansion of interest in Nihonto in the last 30 years that anyone with a piece of steel can put it up as a Shinto Wak or anything else.

 

That said, there are some pretty reputable people who happen to sell Nihonto through the medium of E-bay and the set up of their on-line stores. It is a catch 22 for them as well because the ability to get their product to a lot of people is very limited if they don't get known on some level. I personally have dealt with 2 or 3 that I feel are every bit as honest and good as some of the "friends" I have dealt with in other ways.

 

Best is when you have a relationship with a well known dealer who has a return policy for any reason you are unhappy with what was described and learn what it is you are looking for and what it should look like.

 

In the current state and variation in values a $300.00 blade is probably equivalent to a $300.00 used car - it is a car but

[Adrian]

Actually in some countries you can buy for 300$ a car that would take you from A to B for quite a while before you'd have to do more then maintenance to it :D Of course, it won't look pretty, it would eat fuel like crazy and so on :lol:

 

Anyway, i'd say that when it comes to purchasing from a honest dealer/collector you'll probably get what you paid for (minus a certain percentage, of course).

 

However when you buy from ebay and see "no returns", "has some flaws and blemishes but pictures should tell you what you need to know" you should run like hell.

 

MAYBE you have a chance to get a decent item if the seller has 100% feedback with many nihonto items sold AND offers a reasonable return policy, a very good description and top-notch photos. But then you're probably going to pay for it more then if you bought it from a dealer.

[Alex A]

I think there should be a list of good reliable dealers available (on and off ebay). Allthough nothing to do with nihonto, i am part of a world wide group that deals and collects meteorites. This organisation came about due to the numerous fakes and scams, mainly on ebay. Each member guarentees that what he or she sells is authentic and as an accurate description. I found this a great help when i first started collecting, less worry, i just looked for the imca logo in the advert. I no it sounds idealistic, but it does work and is great for the beginner. Im surprised nothing like this as ever been set up for nihontoo collectors, it all seems a bit hit and miss, especially for the poor beginner. I think something needs to be done, too many fakes, too many bull descriptions, dealers selling blades with no papers for silly money, as well as possibly gimei!, personally, i cant get my head round it.

 

Alex