For study: Goto Mitsutaka

[raiden]

rare study of a perfectly simple, but yet outstanding piece by Goto Mitsutaka, Very Japanese!

[Henry Wilson]

Lovely! Shibui comes to mind!

[Brian]

Simple and refined.

That said....and at the risk of starting something here...I challenge anyone to see that sitting on a table marked over $1000, and without seeing the signature, say to himself "that is a masterpiece, must be Goto"

It has the Japanese taste and elegance. But I am not sure I have convinced myself it has the Goto quality or wow factor. Is this a fully clothed Emperor, or am just stirring?

 

Brian

[paulb]

Not sure if this will be comforting or not but I think I agree with you Brian. Dont get me wrong I love the natural simplicity of the design, it works extremely well but it does not grab my imagination in the same way as other works do. While competent I dont see what would make it top notch.

I dont doubt the failing is mine rather than the piece, I have this conversation regularly with one of my close friends who studies fittings far more than I do.

Oh well probably just as well if I stick to blades

[Ford Hallam]

I fear I must join those who've previously been underwhelmed.

 

To me the actual workmanship, the fluency of the chisel cuts, is mediocre. There seems to be a feeling of weakness and uncertainty in the chiseling itself.

 

With regards to the composition, which is a fairly conventional decorative motif, there is a feeling of dullness as though the dynamic structure of this style of wave wasn't properly understood. This type of wave is reminiscent of a bonsai tree, or it is supposed to be, however this example misses that essential dynamic asymmetry. The placement of the 3 droplets are also very static and safe whereas it would be far more expressive if the drops were positioned as counterpoint to the shape of the wave crests.

There's a disjointedness between the various lines where they ought to flow more harmoniously together. Not necessarily exactly parallel but swelling and moving as though with the same force....like a wave.

 

I think this is a fairly reasonable, perhaps charming, piece of generic kata-kiri work but it's not to my eyes particularly outstanding.

 

I wouldn't call it 'shibui' either. Shibui is astringent, almost terse. This piece offers no challenge nor tautness, it's actually pretty, at best.

 

These are some images of what I consider to be very skillful and expressive kata-kiri waves. The actual style is not important but the grasp of composition and the power of the lines is. This is the work of Kano Natsuo btw.

[Ford Hallam]

And for Henry's pleasure here's another Natsuo that might just be termed shibui....maybe Note that sliver of gold that frames the end. THAT might be shibui.

 

[runagmc]

Ford, on the first pic you posted, they look like different styles of waves, which I wouldn't expect to see right next to each other... Is this a pic of a piece of tosogu, or a demonstration of different styles?

[Ford Hallam]

Adam,

 

yes, the copper plate is a study sample plate Natsuo made for students at the Tokyo University Art department. And it does show a variety of styles.

[Pete Klein]

I find it rather interesting that the Mitsutaka (Goto Enjou XIII) is accomplished in shibuichi as the Shirobei worked almost exclusively in shakudo and/or gold. Goto Mitsumori (Keijou XIV) apparently had a liking for working in copper. There is a Futatokoromono from the Mosle collection by him done in copper which is very interesting. It would seem the success of the Machibori influenced the Goto to adapt and work outside of their predecessor's style mandates.

[Pete Klein]

This is from the collection plates:

[raiden]

Unfortunately only i get to see the piece in hand, and as usual, the pics do not do the richness of the shibuichi justice. If you attend the Tampa show, you may see this piece in hand. The quality of the shibuichi is very close to the Natsuo Juyo kozuka that we passed last year (Ford it's calling you!). I also guess that it is up to personal taste, I personally like all types of waves, and study them as much as i can. And the fact that Mitsutaka was the 13th mainline master and he chose to sign this piece must mean something that i must figure out! A few years ago, i had a Mitsuyoshi kozuka done in shibuichi with a strange simple design of what turned out to be a "lock" for a gate. No one would buy this piece at the American shows, but when i took it to Japan, it was greatly received (and sold)...so i have started to learn a bit about looking at the subject from the artists standpoint - very difficult to figure out sometimes!But my teacher explained things to me at that time, so I understand a bit better now, and have a more open appreciation tham before.

[runagmc]

Here's a pic of a wave motif kozuka I like... :D

[Henry Wilson]

Despite it being knocked by my betters, I still find the kozuka in question very nice and I can imagine it being received well here in Japan. Thank you Mike for sharing. Maybe I am slowly turning Japanese.

And the fact that Mitsutaka was the 13th mainline master and he chose to sign this piece must mean something that i must figure out!

I think this is a good point that a lot of us are hasty to overlook. Just because it doesn't jangle your bell does not mean it is bad.

 

Without starting a fire in a hornets nest, I also find it amusing that Ford has been so kind to define shibui for us. He puts it very eloquently, maybe I am being hyper-sensitive but please try not to be so patronising.

[Ford Hallam]

Without starting a fire in a hornets nest, I also find it amusing that Ford has been so kind to define shibui for us. He puts it very eloquently, maybe I am being hyper-sensitive but please try not to be so patronising.

 

Henry

 

why do you find it amusing that I was "so kind to define shibui" for you? You sound rather patronising in the way you say this. And yes, you are being hypersensitive. I merely tried to help you better appreciate a very subtle and sophisticated aesthetic principle and in response you get all bent out of shape because of that and accuse me of being patronising. Sorry, I won't waste my time in future.

 

And I would like to point out that what I offered was not actually a definition at all but merely a possibility, as made clear by my repeated use of the word "might" with respect to the piece being possibly expressive of 'shibui'.

 

And even if (does it have papers that make it's authorship certain? ) this piece is by Mitsutaka the criticisms I presented remain. If it's likely to be so well received in Japan why is it not not on sale there accompanied with suitably reassuring papers?

 

But, as Mike points out, it's perhaps important to learn to see these pieces as an artist would. In that respect I think I may have a slight advantage...and one I do try to share where I am heard. although I do wonder why I bother

 

 

regards all,

 

Ford

[Pete Klein]

Here is a much better image of the Mitsumori futatokoromono from the Mosle collection:

 

 

PS: Please note the box. That is original to Mosle collection pieces where he had lacquer custom boxes fabricated in Japan with velour lining.

[Henry Wilson]

Deleted by author. Post duplicated below.

[Henry Wilson]

Ford Hallam wrote:

Sorry, I won't waste my time in future.

although I do wonder why I bother

 

 

regards all,

 

Ford

 

 

LOL. I love to see you throw your toys out off the pram. Yes, why bother if you are going to be like that.

 

Finally, it amuses me that you seem to be the "be all and end all" of any disagreement in tosogu appreciation. Your bully / passionate artist approach really is off putting.

 

Sorry Mike and other readers for the hornets nest but sssh Ford is speaking.

[Ford Hallam]

It seems to me, Henry, that you're the one getting his knickers in a knot and having a hissy fit.

 

I bother because most people appreciate my input. Where it becomes a thankless task is when someone who is ignorant of something takes offence at being educated. It's actually quite tiresome having to deal with the sort of pissy attitude you've displayed here. A simple 'thank you' would be sufficient rather than your usual ungracious whining about my manner.

 

And while I'm at it let me point out that when I make a point or offer a critique I take the time to explain my reasoning and where I can to illustrate the matter with suitable images. I have never relied on some imagined authority and will always try to validate what I think. If you see this as me being a bully then I'm afraid you may be the one poorer for that.

[Brian]

Gents,

Usually, myself or a mod would be forced to edit the topic, pruning and removing as necessary. But I think I am going to leave this one, and hope we can get over it and remember that there will always be differences in opinions, and we need to allow people theirs.

Any further posts to be on topic please. When I originally posted my comment, i knew there wouldbe controversy. But I chose to post it because we are an educational forum, and nothing is to be learned from just looking at pics and agreeing with everything presented.

Hopefully Mike understands this too, and welcomes the discussion in the name of learning.

Frankly, I still see lines that if seen in a sword mei, would make me believe in a gimei. Uncertain and hesitant, and not flowing like I would expect.

If this kozuka has recent papers, my opinion wouldn't change. I think it's important, especially when contrasted against what this artist was capable of.

 

There are many kodogu guys out there reading this, who won't post an opinion. Whether this comes from an all-too-common attitude of never challenging the staus quo, or whether they are just accepting what they are told to see...or whether my art appreciation is just off, and this is a masterpiece...well, that's something we will only know if people aren't scared to post their opinions and discuss things rationally. Don't be scared to say "I love it" or "I don't get it" or whatever. We need conversation and discussion, otherwise we are just a bunch of guys all agreeing with each other and patting ourselves on the back. Been done before....didn't work.

 

Mike, thanks for posting, and for stimulating discussion. I bet in hand this is different, but I would hope for Mitsutaka to have better work than just his ground foundation. The strokes have to be masterfully done imho, which we do see all of his other works. Pete also made some notable observations.

Ford gave us his opinion, and showed why he believes that. If you don't like the way he presents it, that is your right. But then counter it with your opinions and reasons..let's not make it personal.

 

This is the more advanced debating that we have been asking for. One that more advanced collectors can and should be debating. Or is it better to look for castings among junk tsuba?

Have an opinion, and post it. Even if just to say my opinion is wrong.

 

Brian

[hybridfiat]

Thank you Ford for your uncoloured and frank critique.

I looked at this piece and refrained from commenting that it did not appear well executed because of my inexperience.

Id still like to own one like it however.

[paulb]

Brian,

I am not sure if this really fits in this discussion, if not please feel free to remove it. Because of a potential project I am doing I have been giving a lot of thought ot the aesthetics of sword vs fittings. Your mail also prompted a couple of other thoughts.

I was told a story recently by a very well respected European collector. He told me that some twenty years ago at an NBTHK viewing he had had the opportunity to study a Shintogo Kunimitsu Tanto. He was unimpressed and started to wonder if this particular work was held in such high esteem because it belonged to someone famous rather than its own merit.

14 years later he saw the sword again. He made himself very unpopular with his fellow viewers as he stayed lookng at it for far beyond his allotted time. He says he had tears in his eyes enjoying the beauty of the blade. Needless to say the sword hadn't changed. hIs understanding of swords had advanced to a point where he could appreciate the finer details of what he was seeing. There is no doubt that as we learn more our appreciation and preferences change. This is an intrinsic part of developing as a collector and student.

With fittings (well out of my comfort zone) This becomes more challenging. Whereas with swords we can appreciate the functionality of the work and the beauty which develops out of form following function, I think with fittings our enjoyment is 90%+ related to the aesthetic of the composition. you either like it or you dont. Once you have made that decision you can then look more objectively at the skill, the use of material, patination etc that all the fittings enthusiast can speak about with so much knowledge. However it is very difficult to eliminate the emotional response to what is basically a piece of art, its whole being is there to solicite that response.

Regarding this piece as I said above I was not greatly impressed, I generally like the simpler compositions created in this form but this one did not hit the right buttons for me. I have no doubt that lack of appreciation is to a large extent due to my lack of study in the subject and understanding of what was trying to be achieved. Hopefully if the discussion develops that understanding can be improved.

[Brian]

I have no doubt that lack of appreciation is to a large extent due to my lack of study in the subject and understanding of what was trying to be achieved. Hopefully if the discussion develops that understanding can be improved.

Paul,

This is exactly what my post set out to address. It is this "I don't get it..must be me" attitude that I am addressing. It is like all of those art movies where ppl say "I didn't understand it, must be me, and the movie must have been great"

Sometimes, that movie is just crap.

Now this kozuka is certainly not bad. Not by a long shot. But why must we say "I have no doubt that lack of appreciation is to a large extent due to my lack of study in the subject and understanding of what was trying to be achieved." and assume it is us? What if the maker simply had a bad day, or the piece is gimei, or it was his first ever released piece, or he was drunk at the time, or he made it in a hurry not expecting it to come up for sale a hundred years later?

There are a ton of reasons that don't assume the fault is with us. Yet we assume it is our lack of understanding.

I tried to look at all the obvious visible features. The only ones that impress me are the Japanese minimalist treatment and the patina. The strokes don't do it for me. And we have been shown many times what badly cut stokes look like. It just doesn't gel together, and I think if the artist fails to capture that in a fairly simple design (let's face it, it would have taken a half hour to cut the design) then maybe the fault isn't with us.

 

I'm happy to be proven wrong. This is why I am asking for comments. Some will just go "he doesn't get it....fails due to lack of exposure to the Japanese aesthetic" but then show me why. Show me what he did here that any mediocre artist couldn't have done.

But let's not use that old line of "...that lack of appreciation is to a large extent due to my lack of study in the subject" because Paul...I think it isn't you. I think you were right the first time. The "we aren't Japanese, we don't get it" excuse can't always apply.

I have fittings with minimal design on them that i think are wonderful. I have a tsuba from Grey by Ikkin that I think is amazing, yet only has a wave on it. The Japanese aesthetic isn't totally lost on me. So why should I question myself over this one?

 

Discuss.

 

Brian

[paulb]

Its a bit like software when something doesnt work the way it should the user always thinks they have done something wrong. Often it is not the case.

Re: lack of appreciation. Any art is a form of communication. Often that communication is at a very basic sensory level. If it says nothing to the observer it has failed. Speaking personally the first thing that appeals with swords is shape, once I am happy with that I move in to the finer details. At that point more understanding is a great aid, by understanding the material and process you can better appreciate the work.

I also enjoy minimal compostion while not claiming to understand the Japanese aesthetic I have enough pieces of Japanese art to know I enjoy and appreciate it. I have reacted badly before when people have used the "dont understand" Japanese work, The "really Zen" description and other such vague defences , whether on swords, paintings or fittings. It is a lazy (some might say arrogant) response which gives the impression of deeper understanding than others have. But and it is a big but we need to study more and we need this type of discussion to extend our horizons and understanding. There is no law that says we have to like everything. but as my old teacher used to say "The more you study the more you will understand why you like what you do"

[Ford Hallam]

Thanks Brian, you've perfectly articulated why we need to more critically analyse works that are presented as being of high quality. Simply taking someone else's word for it teaches us nothing.

 

I think at this point it's also very important to recognise that one's personal taste is not a factor in assessing work. The whole aim of connoisseurship is to try and look more objectively at art in ways that attempt to move beyond our own limited likes. We do this by learning about those aspects that do make one work superior to another. The technical aspects are one part but there is a great deal about the expressiveness of a composition that can also be judged objectively.

 

Of course, with any aesthetic study there will inevitably be a degree of subjectivity but, to use the waves on Mike's kozuka as an example, it is worth having a good appreciation of the classical canon and some reference to the classical forms by which to better judge other waves.

[runagmc]

Personally, I think the style of the waves, and the way they were layed out, is nice - it's just the rigidness of the chiseling, the lack of flow in the cuts, that aren't what I would expect from a master craftsman. I realize I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said already - I'm just agreeing that the craftmanship doesn't appear to be at the level you would expect, and that I don't think the critical opinions expressed are due to a lack of understanding or appreciation...

 

Thanks to Mike for your posts. They are always appreciated... :D

[John A Stuart]

I am wondering if it is the composition itself that is lacking a certain dynamism. We have all seen renditions of waves on various fittings and it is also quite common in western art especially seascape paintings. If done well can show the vibrancy of the sea, its wildness and the colour contained in the way light interacts with the water. This can create a quite large pallet of colour. Of course we are aware of sumi-e and how the economy of strokes used to convey the subject matter is considered an high art. This is usually thought of as the typical monochromatic Zen paintings one sees. However think of Josetsu, a Zen painter that has quite complicated work with strategically applied colour and Sesshu Toyo for examples. Shibusa does not necessarily mean that the work is simple, it means that there are certain subtleties within the work that evoke a certain emotion, memory or other strong response. This can be apparent in art of many cultures and types; the word is Japanese, but, it's sentiment is cosmopolitan and not confined to a specific culture. So, bringing this together, can we say to ourselves that the Mitsutaka piece evokes some particular response? Or, is it just another wave? Does the kozuka posted by runagmc promote this? You can buy some nice flatware with quite nice designs, but, do we consider them high art? By the last sentence you can see my response. John

[cabowen]

I have handled lots of top quality Goto work and if nothing else, it never fails to impress with its sheer technical virtuosity. There are works that awe with technical ability but ultimately fall short of being anything more. Then there are those that are quite simple on a technical level but knock one out with the power of understatement and the emotion they communicate. Then there are those pieces that underwhelm on both technical and emotional impact. I would place this piece in the third category. Good work always generates some kind of response-neither the execution nor composition generate any excitement or interest in me. Next.

[Ford Hallam]

For a comparison this is a very similar style of wave but obviously a more dynamic or dramatic composition. Of interest is the actual vigor and certainty of the chiseling. Not by any means perfect but this doesn't actually significantly detract from the expressive power of the work.

I found it on Tokenkomachi.com here.

 

[Markus]

... it's also very important to recognise that one's personal taste is not a factor in assessing work. The whole aim of connoisseurship is to try and look more objectively at art in ways that attempt to move beyond our own limited likes.

 

I wanna have that quote somewhere framed.

 

Otherwise, very educational thread, on many levels (not meant in a sarcastic way).

[cabowen]

Of interest is the actual vigor and certainty of the chiseling. ...

 

Interesting to me for a number of reasons, one being I lived in Odawara for a few years....