Alex A Posted February 7, 2013 Report Posted February 7, 2013 Sometimes difficult, and sometimes impossible to see. Jean you mentioned that the cracks where not visable until the blade had been polished. Now that as really put me off ever buying a sword in old polish. When i do recieve a blade i examine every inch of the hamon, boshi, infact all the blade with a strong magnifying glass, is this all that can be done? Alex. Quote
Marius Posted February 7, 2013 Report Posted February 7, 2013 In a polished blade hagire will always be visible. Have a look at my pics. Sorry about the quality - these were shot "freehand", a quick job to show the seller he sold me a dud (He took it back, phew). Quote
Alex A Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Posted February 7, 2013 Cheers Mariusz, now i get it. The joys of buying on line :?. That would seriously ruin my day. Alex. Quote
paulb Posted February 7, 2013 Report Posted February 7, 2013 Alex, the example posted is very clear, often hagire are much harder to spot. The problem is not buying on line it is who you choose to buy from. There many reputable dealers who sell good pieces across the range of price an styles. They exist because they offer good service and value. They also guard their reputation very closely and would not risk it to make a quick buck and certanly would not want to take advantage of a new buyer (they waht to encourage) Virtually all the swords I have bought over the past 15 years have been from overseas sellers and bought on line. Look at the commercial links on ths site to get a view of what is available. The best offer a no quibble return policy You will also find that the prices charged are the market rate and often you get better value for your money than you would from Ebay where there are numerous opportunties to waste your money. Quote
Alex A Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Posted February 7, 2013 Cheers Paul, i suppose a no quibble return policy is adamant. Alex Quote
Marius Posted February 7, 2013 Report Posted February 7, 2013 I guess that Paul has summed it up nicely. I bought form a serious seller, who gave me the choice of either taking it back or slashing the price by 50%. I went for the latter as a friend of mine wanted a good blade with hagire (because of his budget). I may add that there are a few (well, maybe 2-3) honest dealers on eBay as well, the trick is to know them. Some of these dealers may even have high quality items on eBay from time to time, although most of the time these are lower quality items Quote
cabowen Posted February 7, 2013 Report Posted February 7, 2013 Sometimes extremely hard to see unless the sword is in polish. I have a beautiful uchigatana signed by a student of No-sada that I bought out of polish. My polisher called me twice while working on it to tell me how nice it was- even mentioned Juyo shinsa. I was really getting excited! Then he called me to tell me that he found a hagire. That was a heartbreaker! Sword is a dead ringer for No-sada...Of course already had a new shirasaya and habaki. That is how it goes sometimes. Maybe some day I will find a new home for it-someone who can look past the hagire... Quote
Alex A Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Posted February 7, 2013 Cheers Chris, out of curiosity, how are they caused,breifly, are they battle scars? or are they a fault in the forging/quenching... Alex. Quote
cabowen Posted February 7, 2013 Report Posted February 7, 2013 Usually they occur during quenching and are weeded out immediately. Sometimes from use. It is hard to say when the one on my blade appeared. There was no sign that it had hit something hard. Quote
Alex A Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Posted February 7, 2013 I suppose in battle, if a sword takes an hard knock, the bend and stress will cause cracks. Alex Quote
Jean Posted February 7, 2013 Report Posted February 7, 2013 Another case not to be forgotten is when the blade is bent or double bent and that the togishi must bring it back straight. Depending on the hamon, hagire can easily happen during this process. Quote
Sam Elliott Posted February 7, 2013 Report Posted February 7, 2013 Not to long ago I was offered a Daisho by a dealer. It warranted some interest, and while talking to him about the state of polish and noticing a few areas I had questions about, he came forward with the fact that the katana had a Hagire. However neither he or his polisher felt it would keep the blade from passing Shinsa. I politley disagreed and moved on...as he would not tell me who his polisher was it only added to my resolve. As they would have needed polish in the not to distant future, who knows what else would have popped up. Will I consider other blades they have to offer? Perhaps. I have no doubt they would have taken the blades back after examination, and I beleive legitimate and serious dealers would do the same. Frankly speaking the ones I have purchsed from I cannot imagine not voulenteering such information from the start. However ebay and similar is really a crap shoot in terms of what you receive and often times who you are dealing with, and certainly the ability to return an item. I suppose if one uses PayPal it offers some level of protection, but certainly not without a fight. Sam Quote
cabowen Posted February 7, 2013 Report Posted February 7, 2013 Any honest individual will point out such flaws upfront. Sometimes, being very hard to see, they get by even honest people, especially on blades that are scratched and badly out of polish. This is one reason why they (should) sell at a deep discount. I have bought many blades in this state, with an "as is" policy, and have won some, and lost a few. Part of the game. It is hard for anyone to sell an out of polished blade with a return policy long enough to cover the year or more a polish can take. Things can happen in shipping, during polish, etc. A related story: A very close friend of mine once sold a beautiful sword to a very well known Ca dealer that had a hagiri. My friend was quite surprised that the dealer was interested in it, and sold it for next to nothing. The next day my friend saw the sword on the dealer's table, at a big price. Mysteriously, there were now scratches all around the hagire. Quote
Alex A Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Posted February 7, 2013 Where theres money to be made,theres shenanigans..... Alex. Quote
Clive Sinclaire Posted February 8, 2013 Report Posted February 8, 2013 Gentlemen I had a very good Hizen sword that was out of polish and sent it to Japan for polishing. After I had new shira-saya and gold habaki made for it, the polisher told me that he had spotted ha-giri. I was devastated! Apparently he had just about finished the foundation work and was at the Uchigamori stage, which is quite late to spot the problem. It appears that swords that are nie-deki, especially if there is much nie within the hamon, ha-giri is very difficult to detect. Swords in nioi-deki are comparatively easy to spot at an early stage in the polishing. Of course, I told my togishi to stop work immediately and send the sword back to me. Sam said: However neither he or his polisher felt it would keep the blade from passing Shinsa. I politley disagreed and moved on You are quite correct as there is no way, Sam, that it would pass shinsa and it is completely worthless, certainly the polisher would know this and I would not deal with them again. I would not try to hide or disguise the ha-giri as this would be simply dishonest and deceiteful. You cannot sell it or even give it away and the best to hope for is a full refund from the seller. You wiill still be out of pocket, but maybe a little wiser. Clive Sinclaire Quote
cabowen Posted February 8, 2013 Report Posted February 8, 2013 An old collector in Japan once consoled me when this happened to me, Clive, by saying "now you can call yourself a sword collector". Welcome to the club! Haaha! Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted February 8, 2013 Report Posted February 8, 2013 Clive Sinclaire said: Apparently he had just about finished the foundation work and was at the Uchigamori stage, which is quite late to spot the problem. Virtually the same thing happened to a friend that had a signed Shinshinto blade with a cutting test. Early on fellow collectors talked about these sort of risks coming with the territory. Which always left a hint of knot inside when sending a sword off for polish hoping that an early call wouldn't come. While there's nothing to be done about such hidden flaws, quartz halogen lighting goes a long way in helping to find difficult to spot hagire and other flaws. Quote
Alex A Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Posted February 8, 2013 Is there anything the polisher could do to detect hagiri at the start of the process? If it where the polishers blade, would he do things differently?. Could he perhaps start with the hamon/boshi, or is the process written in stone so to speak, just a thought. Alex Quote
cabowen Posted February 8, 2013 Report Posted February 8, 2013 I believe a hagire will show if the blade is magnafluxed. Not sure what a shop would charge to perform that but it might not be a bad idea with a sword that is out of polish, especially in light of the costs these days. Not much a togi-shi can do except use his eyes. Quote
Alex A Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Posted February 8, 2013 Might be worh geting an expensive sword magnafluxed(sounds like someting from back to the future )on arrival..If anything shows up, return it to the seller. Alex Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 8, 2013 Report Posted February 8, 2013 Magnafuxing iron or steel is easy as pie. You can do it at home. All you need is a small electromagnet and some fine iron filings. If you are really electrically proficient you can make your blade an electromagnet. John Quote
Alex A Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Posted February 8, 2013 Hi John, have you ever used this method to detect ha giri? Alex Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 8, 2013 Report Posted February 8, 2013 No, I use it often on large engine blocks and gearboxes etc. The principle is the same and should work just fine. Maybe an easier method would be the penetrant test. These use sprays that are cheap and highlight cracks. Some are flourescent and some are normal dyes. They come in spray cans at most good supply shops. John Quote
Alex A Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Posted February 8, 2013 Cheers John, il bare that in mind. Alex Quote
george trotter Posted February 11, 2013 Report Posted February 11, 2013 Hi John, how does the dye come off? just a clean cloth or also a solvent? Can you mention a product name and solvent name (if any)? Will the dye come out if it lodges in small scratches or pits (ie..maybe we don't have ha-gire). Just thought I'd ask. Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 11, 2013 Report Posted February 11, 2013 There are many types available. We use Magnaflux dye penetrants a lot. There is a Cantesco and a Promtech product and others. They will come up on google. They all wash off. They come in spray cans like aerosol paints. I would check specifics before choosing one and test on some other piece to be sure you are comfortable with the specific product. John Quote
Adrian Posted February 13, 2013 Report Posted February 13, 2013 cabowen said: A related story: A very close friend of mine once sold a beautiful sword to a very well known Ca dealer that had a hagiri. My friend was quite surprised that the dealer was interested in it, and sold it for next to nothing. The next day my friend saw the sword on the dealer's table, at a big price. Mysteriously, there were now scratches all around the hagire. Perhaps the name of the dealer/shop would be worth mentioning. Quote
Brian Posted February 13, 2013 Report Posted February 13, 2013 Since it's hearsay without a statement from the original owner...perhaps not. Am sure it's true, but not going to start a war here over something that happened a long time ago without proof. If you want the name, pm Chris, although he might agree about disclosing the info. Brian Quote
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