Kanenobu signature

[Photios]

Hello, gentlemen,

first of all big apology for my horrible English. I am a newcomer here, but I'm a long time reader of your great discussions. Thank you for the edification that it brings to me.

 

I want to ask you for help and advice. I got the sword with this signature. It is in gunto koshirae. Sword is most likely from the ww2 period. On the sword are no stamps (Showa, Seki etc.). Sword is not dated.

 

I read the signature as follow: "Noshu ju Kanenobu saku". But I do not know which Kanenobu it should be. If I'm right, Niwa Shuji Kanenobu use a different second character in his name (延). All swordsmiths named Kanenobu, who used the same character as is in the signature of my sword (信), are much older (koto, shinto).

Is it possible that Niwa Kanenobu used two forms of writing of his name? Or is it some other Kanenobu? Can someone help me? In advance thank you.

 

Petr

[cabowen]

I would think this is a WWII smith, different from Niwa Kanenobu.

[george trotter]

I agree, looks WWII. Nice signature and nakago finish and shape (much better than usual Seki WWII shape and finish).

This is (I feel confident) Niwa Kanenobu. The modern Seki line goes like this:

Kosaka? Kaneyoshi - 4 students

#3 was (this) Niwa Kanenobu - 17 students (2 he taught himself and 15 with teacher Watanabe Kanenaga)

#1 of the 2 "private" students was Niwa Kanenobu (the "other" nobu)...his son?

At first glance you seem to have the "father"...looks like a good sword.

 

Hope this helps.

Edit to add: info from Uchiyama atiicles "Nihon Gendaito Shoshi" Chapter IV p.8 in Token Bijutsu #149 June 1969.

[David Flynn]

Hi George, Niwa Kanenobu, learnt from his dad, also Kanenobu. His dad helped start the Seki school, along with Kanenaga and Kanemitsu. Also I believe, Kanenobu Senior signed similarly to Niwa.

[Photios]

Thank you gentlemen for your feedback. I very much appreciate it. Unfortunately I have no relevant literature to solve similar nuances.

 

To George:

Great thanks for your excursion into modern history of Kanenobu line. I did not find any similar information in the sources that are available for me.

If I understood well, you have in mind this Kanenobu, about which writes Mr. Slough ("Kanenobu’s real name is Niwa Shuji and was born in April 1903, the second son of Kanenobu"). I have to admit that I already thought about that. Unfortunately about this master I not found any further information.

 

Is it possible to know some details about the "Kanenobu father"? Has anyone seen his sword or signature? Any help would be appreciated.

 

Petr

[george trotter]

Hi Petr,

No...the Kanenobu signature you show in the pic is the Father...Niwa Kanenobu

His 2nd son is Niwa Kanenobu (Shuji) shown in Slough p.54-5.

The source I used is in Japanese.

I looked in my other sources and most mention the son only. Sorry, I have no more info.

Being a teacher of the wartime generations of upper level Seki gendai tosho, I think your sword is important.

Regards,

 

Edit to add pic.

Here is a page from 1942 "Dai Nihon Token Shoko Meikan"

It is the info for the Kanemoto Co.Ltd. (Kanemoto Shokai, Seki Gifu..."Noshu"). This forge is run by Kaneko Kanemoto...1944 he is called 27 gen Magoroku Kanemoto I think....this Kanemoto is also a student of Watanabe Kanenaga (like Niwa Kanenobu the son).

The article lists the swordsmiths as (large print) Niwa Kanenobu (father) Niwa Kanenobu (son) Kuriyama Kaneaki, Kato Jumyo.

This means that both worked together at this sword forge.

Download the page for your file.

 

And again: I found some extra info about the son in ONO 1977 p.92. Father Niwa Kanenobu's real name was Kanematsu and he began teaching his son in Taisho 6 (1917?) and since the son was born Meiji 36 (1903) it seems the father was probably born about 1875-80 period.

 

I also found him in the Meikan p.169. (Gives wrong kanji for Niwa), Just says name Kanematsu...around Taisho...Gifu...

[cabowen]

I think George may be on to something- maybe the father, Niwa Kanematsu.

 

Then again, I would want to compare to a known example as there are a great many Seki smiths and this could indeed be someone else.

 

Kanenobu is a well used name in Seki history.

[george trotter]

Yes, Chris is right...Meikan says a Noshu name, so it was used a lot. You do need to try some research into gendai smiths of Seki to be sure, but I do think from what we see so far, that this is the mei of the father Niwa (Kanematsu) Kanenobu. I think an important blade for modern Seki tosho history.

regards,

[Photios]

Thanks again everyone for your opinions. It is certain that it will be necessary to perform a comparison with known specimens of swords by Kanenobu's father. But that will probably be a problem - until now I have not seen any such piece...

 

To George:

Thank you very much for a comprehensive search which you've done. Undoubtedly, it is the largest amount of information that I have seen until now in one place about Kanenobu's father. I appreciate your willingness.

 

To David:

I went through some older threads and found I was mentioning that on April 2010 you are owned gendaito by Niwa Kanenobu's father. Do you have some pictures for comparison? It would be very helpful.

[runagmc]

You may already have all the info in this article, but if not, here you go... http://www.nihontocraft.com/Mino_Gendai.html

[Photios]

You may already have all the info in this article, but if not, here you go... http://www.nihontocraft.com/Mino_Gendai.html

 

Thank you Adam - I know this article of course. It is a very good tool for first exploring the theme of modern production of swords in Seki. However, no details about Kanenobu's father (or about other masters of Kanenobu named - except of Niwa Shuji Kanenobu) are not there unfortunately.

 

By the way - just this article brought me to the idea that the signature of my sword could be signature of Kanenobu's father. Please note that the author of the article writes differently name of Niwa Shuji Kanenobu (兼延) and differently name of his father (兼信). I do not know where he gathered this information.

 

Petr

[george trotter]

Petr,

the information about the 2 kanji for "nobu" comes from Japanese records. You can see the two ways of writing the kanji for "nobu" in the page I posted from 1942. Both father and son were alive then...the journalist who wrote that page would have just spoken to both of them and asked them their names/kanji.

 

I hope you get the information from 2010 and see another mei etc.

Regards,

[David Flynn]

My son gave me a DSLR, but I haven't worked out how to use it. One day!

With the Kanenobu I have, the Kanenobu kanji, looks alsmost Identical with the Niwa Kanenobu, same Nobu Kanji. However the sword is signed, Seki Kanenobu and the Nakago Jiri , is totally different to Niwa. There isn't a date on it (though there was and it was removed? Yoshikawa san, said he thought it was maybe to pass the sword off as Koto ). Yoshikawa San thinks the sword was made around 1930.

[Photios]

...the journalist who wrote that page would have just spoken to both of them and asked them their names/kanji.

 

George,

totally agree - the historical record is the best evidence for what form of spelling their names used both father and son Kanenobu. We no longer have to speculate ...

 

Petr

[Photios]

With the Kanenobu I have, the Kanenobu kanji, looks alsmost Identical with the Niwa Kanenobu, same Nobu Kanji.

 

Kanenobu father used in his name almost the same second character like his son - that's an interesting information with regard to the information above. It appears that otherwise used a different spelling - at least when spoken with mentioned journalist.

 

Petr

[george trotter]

Kanenobu father used in his name almost the same second character like his son -

 

Petr

 

NO. Kanenobu father used the "nobu" kanji on your sword.

son used a completely different kanji for "nobu"...look again at your sword and at the 2 "nobu" kanji on the 1942 page.

 

Dave san...I'd need to see comparative pics but I do know that "completely" different mei style and nakago shape and yasuri mei is not uncommon on say 1930 sword and 1944 sword.

One smith who is almost unrecogniseable in 1944 from 1938 is Seki Nakata Kanemoto...so that alone is not always an indicator .

 

Regards,

[cabowen]

George, I think you mean Kanehide, rather than Kanemoto.

 

George is saying the father signed:

 

兼信

 

The son signed:

 

兼延

[runagmc]

If Petr's sword is by the father, Niwa Kanenobu must have copied his mei style pretty close. This sword almost looks like it was signed by the same hand as a Niwa Kanenobu tachi I own. The "No" in Noshu is not as precisely carved but everything else is almost a perfect match...

 

It would be nice to see an example of the fathers work... Petr, do you have any pics of your sword.

[cabowen]

Here is a WWII sword said to be by the father, Niwa Kanenobu. It is very well made in the Seki style:

 

[runagmc]

Chris, anymore pics of the whole sword?

[cabowen]

See here:

 

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/11152.html

[Photios]

Unfortunately, at the moment the sword is still on the way from the retailer. Available to me is only a few photos that are not ideal ...

 

Once the sword arrives I'll try to take some photos (do not know what is the result - I'm not a good photographer ).

 

For now, at least a few images from the seller - but with great apology for their quality .

[george trotter]

Chris, sorry just got back to board...yes you are right...Nakata Kanehide

must be old age

 

Regards,

[Photios]

So now I got my new sword ...

First impression: the sword definitely is not in the best condition, original wartime polish is dead, on the edge is a lot of nicks - and especially missing big piece of the tip of kissaki (likely work of some modern "samurais" who cut off completely anything ... ).

 

On the other hand I like the overall shape of this blade - much finer than on most Seki blades from ww2 period.

 

I tried to take a picture of the sword as best I could. I apologize for the quality of images. I'm not a studio photographer (definitely) ...

[cabowen]

Appears to me to be clearly the work of the father, Niwa Kanenobu. He was a good smith (there, I admitted it, there were good smiths in Seki). His mei is nicely cut. The nakago is mediocre but it was war time.

 

Yes, unfortunately it is pretty rough. It could be repaired by a competent togi, but it would be expensive and probably not worth it.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[David Flynn]

The Kanenobu I have, has a Nakago Jiri like the one in the photo Chris posted. As I said earlier, the Kanji Nobu is different ( same as Niwa). The Nakago Jiri in the Photo Petr Supplied, is like the Oshigata I've seen by Niwa Also, I was under the impression, that Kanenobu senr. died before the war It is very hard to find records of Kanenobu senr.

[george trotter]

Hi David san,

If the nobu kanji is the same as the son? then it must? be the son or some other Kanenobu?

I don't know when Kanenobu senior died either, but he was definitely living in March 1941 when that

page I posted was written. He was the other senior teacher with Watanabe Kanenaga. They shared the teaching of

the 16 "Seki Gendai Tosho". Although there is little info on him his work can be considered above average.

 

Chris...yes some good smiths in Seki. While I thought his nakago was quite good (for Seki...seen plenty worse ones), I agree that Seki nakago in general are a bit sloppy in their finish.

 

looks like a good sword...pity about the damage.

Regards,

[Photios]

Gentlemen,

once more thank you very much to all those who shared their experiences and opinions in this matter. I greatly appreciate it.

 

I would like to ask you if you will met in the future with some examples of Niwa Kanenobu father's sword (or example of sword from the WW2 period with the same signature) so that you kindly share your discovery in this thread. Also would welcome any information on the person and work of Niwa Kanenobu senior. I will continue my personal research on this topic.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Petr

[Photios]

Further to our recent discussions - in the archive JapaneseSword.com I found a sword by Niwa Kanenobu father. Mei is almost identical and also the shape of the nakago. Although the sword bears the stamp Showa, the seller called it gendaito. And indeed - the blade has by water tempered hamon and seems also hada ... Very interesting sword.

 

http://www.japanesesword.com/Images/Swords/08/608/608KAT7/608KAT7.htm

 

Petr

[cabowen]

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on this blade being traditionally made from the photos.