Beginner looking to make his first mail purchase

[sanjuro]

I'm probably capable to select a wakizashi with mounts that would definitelly have some value.

 

More likely, probably not!

Given that you claim to have only just begun in this extremely complex world of nihonto, and to make a statement like this, really says 'I dont know what I dont know' and 'I dont even appreciate how much there is to know'.

In a sense, at the moment you are most likely your own worst enemy in regards to acquiring a reasonable sword without the benefit of advice from some sort of mentor. :D

[leo]

Adrian,

with all the dealer links Brian published above, plus the For Sale section, you should be able(requires some amount of precious time though), to scan through the prices being asked for what you desire.

 

If the market does not meet your budget, which is unfortunately rather the rule than the exception , even the most helpful members of this board will not be able to help you.

You might try on ebay wth all the risks involved, or wait for a lucky streak.

 

Best,

[Dr Fox]

Adrian

I was exactly where you are now! But for some 10 years I bought books, visited fairs, and viewed swords at any location where they could be found. Only recently did I place myself in real dealers hands, with a view to purchase.

 

So why? If I had the money, did I bother spending lots on books, travel and associated costs? If I added that money to what I already had, I could have made a more expensive purchase, and ‘there now I have a Samurai sword!

For me it comes down to two categories, collectors of Nihonto, and buyers of swords. The start I gave myself, showed me the blade as an art object, its use as a weapon in its day was a secondary fact. Even my scant knowledge, now gave me an insight into what I found pleasurable, and what I wanted to live with.

 

Any other areas of ‘collecting’ will no way prepare you for the subject you are discussing here, this is a stand alone subject, there are members on here, who have spent the greater part of their lives on this study.

Others and I will advise you, but I fear you will do what you want, unfortunately you will join the ranks of others whose posts read, ”Oh have I slipped up”. You summed up your situation your self Q.I'm far from being able to figure out all the flaws and qualities of a Japanese blade even when looking at it Q.

 

If you would take a moment to read what you have already said, it comes across that you, are self confessed to make appraisals yourself, In blade, mounts, and tsuba’s, so I am wondering ‘What exactly are you asking for?

 

Denis.

[Alex A]

Adrian, so much good advice!.. as you can see, you have already started off on the right path. well done.

 

Alex.

[Adrian]

Adrian.

 

If I may, I would like to introduce a couple of things into your thinking on this subject. I shall do it in plain english, and none of it is meant as a criticism, but rather as an observation.

Someone who has had collecting experience in something like coins, is not necessarily well prepared for the variety that is nihonto. Its a bit like a family doctor thinking he would make a great brain surgeon. He may in fact become a great brain surgeon, but not without a great deal of study. Coins are mass produced and authenticity is relatively easy to establish, whereas each nihonto is unique. A genuine coin in good condition is worth a given price. You may get an authentic well preserved nihonto that despite condition is still not a good example. Previous collecting experience in an unrelated field does not help much when it comes to nihonto.

 

Keith, your affirmation about coins is valid (to a certain degree, but I won't get into splitting straws) when it comes to modern coins. In regard to ancient coins it is simply false.

Ancient coins (even if some of them produced in large numbers) were individually and manually produced using a coin die that was, in it's turn, manually engraved. Even when the same worker was using the same coin die, the result was far from being identical from piece to piece. Some are not centered, some are struck uneven and so on (yes, back in the day they used a hammer to strike the upper side of the die) .

More important, coin dies, even for the same type produced in the same mint, were far from having the same quality. Usually a well-known artist would carve the first dies (used to create a small "specimen" series presented to the ruler and so on) then less skilled artists would replicate his work as long as the respective type was issued.

Sometimes a ruler would not be pleased with the first dies and would bring another artist to give it a try, but the first series would survive. It goes on and on.

As a result, for the same type of coin, you can have pieces that are a world apart in term of quality, even if the condition is similar.

Take a close look at these two tetradrachms issued by Demetrios Poliokertes at the Amphipolis mint, probably in the same year, and you're going to understand what I mean:

 

 

Being at the level where I can understand and appreciate this kind of difference, I hope you'll understand why I believe to be able to avoid really gross mistakes when it comes to Tosogu.

 

 

 

Other have hinted at it, but the fact is, nihonto are a lousy investment. If you approach this like an accountant, you will get badly burned.

If you buy a low quality sword or a medium quality sword, all each of these will teach you is about low or medium quality swords, and you will not get an appreciation of good quality nihonto from owning either.

If you want to study koshirae then buy koshirae. if you want to study blades then buy blades. At the level of your budget you are not likely to get quality examples of both in the one package.

 

I think I gave ample proof that I'm not approaching this as an accountant . But of course you might see it completelly different then I do. As for the chances to get everything in one package, one can only hope

 

 

Beware, you are in that target group of would be collectors of nihonto that is beloved by the fake peddlers, and not all of them are Chinese by any means. There are fakes out there that are not cheap and would fool many a speculative collector. This is why you need to know what it is you want to buy and to have enough appreciation of the subject to know what is and what isnt desirable.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but avoiding fakes can be done even with 0 knowledge, only by using common sense and having good purchasing habits.

For example, if you buy a sword that was advertised by a reputable seller on this forum (with all the relevant photos posted for the general public to see) the chances to end up buying a fake are slim to none.

Of course this won't be a bargain, as bargains don't end up being sold to the noobest member of the forum after everyone saw the item and then the pictures, but it won't be a fake either.

 

You probably dont want to hear any of this, and without doubt it will come across as negative and not encouraging to you. It is however the truth, and if nothing else I owe you that rather than vague, purile but politically correct encouragement.

First accumulate some knowledge and decide what you are trying to achieve, then by all means equipped with that knowledge search for something that advances you toward whatever goal you have set yourself. The last thing you want is to go out and buy something for the sake of ownership then come back here only to find that what you have is poor quality and therefore useless and valueless, or as a worst case scenario - fake.

JMHO

 

 

The truth is a tricky fellow and usually it has more then one face

 

 

More likely, probably not!

Given that you claim to have only just begun in this extremely complex world of nihonto, and to make a statement like this, really says 'I dont know what I dont know' and 'I dont even appreciate how much there is to know'.

In a sense, at the moment you are most likely your own worst enemy in regards to acquiring a reasonable sword without the benefit of advice from some sort of mentor. :D

 

To keep to your doctor comparison, it's more like a brain surgeon being put in the situation to perform without any preparation some very complicated abdominal surgery. He may manage or not to do the right thing, depending on his cross-discipline training, his personal skill, his team and last but not least, his luck.

 

Anyway, please resta asured that I don't see your comments as being negative. . You know little about me and the fact that english isn't my main language isn't going to help me project the correct image on short notice.

[sanjuro]

Adrian.

My apologies indeed! You are so obviously erudite, worldly and intelligent, not to mention all knowing, that you could not possibly make the same mistakes that hundreds of newbies who think just like you have fallen foul of. You have totally missed the point of any advice given to you.

Now, since you equally obviously dont need any advice whatsoever regarding nihonto, why the hell did you bother asking for it??????

 

Dont bother replying...... I'm done with both you and this thread.

[Adrian]

Keith, I pretty much agree with you, but I think new collectors CAN find something that can bring them enjoyment (and also teach them something), without having to completely go all out financially on their first purchase.

 

That being said, you will probably have to be VERY patient if you want to find a decent sword in decent mounts for $1,500... I suggest picking one or the other, for that kind of budget... because lets face it, you may not need something super high quality at this point, but you don't want to end up with complete junk either... :D

 

 

 

Thank you Adam, that's very close to what I'm hoping for.

 

 

Adrian

I was exactly where you are now! But for some 10 years I bought books, visited fairs, and viewed swords at any location where they could be found. Only recently did I place myself in real dealers hands, with a view to purchase.

 

So why? If I had the money, did I bother spending lots on books, travel and associated costs? If I added that money to what I already had, I could have made a more expensive purchase, and ‘there now I have a Samurai sword!

For me it comes down to two categories, collectors of Nihonto, and buyers of swords. The start I gave myself, showed me the blade as an art object, its use as a weapon in its day was a secondary fact. Even my scant knowledge, now gave me an insight into what I found pleasurable, and what I wanted to live with.

 

Well, unfortunatelly simply I cannot take your approach, mostly for practical reasons. However I fully understand and agree with your argument. Putting it in my words: "one may manage to buy a decent (or even a good) sword by using common sense, but that isn't going to make him a Nihonto collector."

However, my personal opinion is that you're going to have better results at learning if you own something you can study. And if that "something" isn't a piece of crap, of course.

 

Any other areas of ‘collecting’ will no way prepare you for the subject you are discussing here, this is a stand alone subject, there are members on here, who have spent the greater part of their lives on this study.

Others and I will advise you, but I fear you will do what you want, unfortunately you will join the ranks of others whose posts read, ”Oh have I slipped up”. You summed up your situation your self Q.I'm far from being able to figure out all the flaws and qualities of a Japanese blade even when looking at it Q.

 

I totally agree that in-depth knowledge requires many years of research. This is valid with pretty much every domain of human activity, let alone with antiquities. However I totally disagree that other areas of antique collecting will not prepare me one bit for this.

I definitelly wouldn't chew up a cheap chinese copy, for example . Of course, that doesn't mean that I could tell a $100.000 high-end blade from a good condition $5000 average blade produced in the same area and age by a lesser maker, hut let's face it, my budget isn't going to put me in such dilemmas :D .

 

If you would take a moment to read what you have already said, it comes across that you, are self confessed to make appraisals yourself, In blade, mounts, and tsuba’s, so I am wondering ‘What exactly are you asking for?

 

Denis.

 

To be honest I was hoping for some basic rules of thumb rather then for general, common sense advice.

[Adrian]

Adrian.

My apologies indeed! You are so obviously erudite, worldly and intelligent, not to mention all knowing, that you could not possibly make the same mistakes that hundreds of newbies who think just like you have fallen foul of. You have totally missed the point of any advice given to you.

Now, since you equally obviously dont need any advice whatsoever regarding nihonto, why the hell did you bother asking for it??????

 

Dont bother replying...... I'm done with both you and this thread.

 

 

Sorry you see it this way. I'm far from being all knowing (or secretly believing that I am). I was just trying to point out the fact that you were doing about coins the same mistake that you believed I was doing about Nihonto. Believe it or not, but someone who has a lot of background in antique collection is better equipped to learn the very basics then someone who is touching the first time this vast domain. I'm sure this doesn't apply to me alone and that other members could confirm this.

 

Other then that, I thank you for the advice given, which shows a lot of common sense. Again, sorry if you were offended in any way, this was not my intention.

[Alex A]

All good straightforward advice Adrian, nothing gets candy coated on here, be glad folk have took the time to help you.

 

Alex

[runagmc]

Adrian, I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet in this post, but if you search the forum about "beginners", "newbies", etc., you will find that this same type of advice has been given over and over... If it were me, I would start there. That way, you can avoid pointless arguments with people who post advise that's different from what you were looking for.

 

I'll also say that the internet, as a whole, has lots of good info on Nihonto - so there's plenty of free material to keep a new student busy... have fun... :D

[Adrian]

Thank you guys.

 

It's not that the advice received here is different from what I was expecting in the common sense department. I fully appreciate this kind of advice, but I was hoping for a bit more then that.

 

Some practical advice about how to spot fatal flaws that may not be obvious in a picture for example. Things like that.

[Alex A]

Google japaneses sword index, plenty of advice on kizu there,

 

Alex.

[Adrian]

It's bookmarked for quite some time, a link at the bottom of the main page of the site leaded me to this forum

[Alex A]

Ok. some good advice there.

 

Alex

[cabowen]

Thank you guys.

 

It's not that the advice received here is different from what I was expecting in the common sense department. I fully appreciate this kind of advice, but I was hoping for a bit more then that.

 

Some practical advice about how to spot fatal flaws that may not be obvious in a picture for example. Things like that.

 

Here is some practical advice: buying from pictures (without many years of practical experience) is a bad idea unless the seller is trustworthy.

 

There really is no "sword buying for dummies" practical guide available as far as I know. As has been said, hang around the forums, buy and read a lot of books, ask a lot of questions, and attend all the shows you can. If you want to take it to another level, spend as much time as possible in Japan where you can study the best swords with the best teachers. Be patient as no matter what, there is a rather steep and long learning curve and it will all take time.

[Jean]

Adrian,

 

Even experts can pass by fatal flaws. I had a sword with an NTHK kanteisho which once polished displaid two Hagire.

 

You must buy from Sellers having a return policy. Now the only advice I can give youi is to learn to look at a blade and not only watch it. Same difference as between hearing and listening, talking and speaking.

[Marius]

I was hoping for a bit more then that.

 

Some practical advice about how to spot fatal flaws that may not be obvious in a picture for example. Things like that.

 

Start with Nobuo Nakahara's "Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords: A Collector’s Guide”. But this applies only to swords that you can hold in hand.

[Adrian]

I think that, at this point, the safest bet would be to attend a few big sword shows in Europe, where I could meet some of the experienced members of the board and have a look (under their guidance) at some swords. Unfortunatelly location combined with work and family commitments leave little room for such approach, even if I found someone willing to help at this level.

 

With this ruled out, I must confess I definitelly don't see myself reading books for the next 10 years. However I have a good list of books (some of them already in the mail) and I will try to get in touch with the local museums and see if I can arrange to view some of the Japanese swords they might have in their collections. Probably a long shot too but I know a few people so I'll see how it goes.

 

Again thank you all for the advice.

[Brian]

Adrian,

If this whole forum can be run from down here in South Africa..and even I can find some local guys with which to share this interest...I am betting you won't do too badly. We have members from places like CZ, Russia, Finland, Israel etc etc...so I am sure you won't be alone.

Suggestions from me? Find a nice wakizashi in shirasaya, forget the mounts for now.

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

Adrian

Not having English as your first tongue, I must say that your written skills are second to none; now your not kidding this old Pilgrim, are you?

You wanted more! I cant see what more you could have had, every point you raised is right here in previous posts, and it wont take you 10 years to find them.

I had a sword interest long before I started my bookwork. I started at 59 now I am 69, and you at 40, definitely don't see your self, reading books for the next 10 years. It all comes down to how serious you regard the subject.

Should you spend your money unwisely, you will spend the next 10 yrs staring at that piece of steel, and it will teach you nothing, except caution.

I really do wish you well to whatever standard you wish to attain.

Regards Denis.

[Andi B.]

Hello Adrian,

 

I have followed this thread and although so many good advices were given I want to add my 2 cents.

 

I'm also a beginner; I own only few unpolished and unmounted ebay Wakizashi blades from my very first beginning).

Non of them was more than 200$ - means they are crap (at least not worth any polishing). I have no problems with them because any Paul Chen would be more expensive .

 

But joking apart:

I tried to follow the advices given here to every beginner and I bought many books plus I have the opportunity from time to time to see and handle some really nice blades. Among them there were swords from Yoshindo Yoshihara, Gassan's, Kiyondo & Masao and even a Shizu Kaneuji.

 

And here the problems begin:

 

1) I can't really appreciate the blades if I don't have the knowledge and - more important - the experience. For untrained eyes they are simply swords...

2) The more I discover the art and handicraft of better swords (at least of a good polish) the more I will detect faults on "cheaper" swords.

 

That's the dilemma:

I don't want to spend money on blades which are crap in my eyes but I can't really identify high quality blades.

-> That's why I still not own a nice katana (but of course I want!!!)

 

But if the "pressure" will become too high I will have to start with something!

And I suppose you are a bit in this situation .

 

So my opinion is:

At least if you don't buy a fake or something with fatal flaws in your price range there is nothing wrong about it.

It will be a normal process that your demand will grow with increasing knowledge and a few years (months) later your will automatically look for something more interesting. Maybe you can't learn many directly from this blade but it will surely motivate you to learn more of "Nihonto".

And - you can always sell the first blade to someone who is in the same situation as you are now.

 

As Brian said, a decent wakizashi in shirasaya should be possible without any regrets.

[tony edmunds]

My advice, born of experiece is to only buy papered swords, that way you avoid the dreaded fatal flaws like hagire etc. and at least know which smith and or school made the blade.

I would of course give this advice as I've had a papered Wak for sale for £800 for four months and no takers :lol:

 

Good luck with your collecting

[Alex A]

I agree, if you dont buy a papered sword sooner or later you will want it to be a papered sword and thats MORE expense.

 

Alex.

[Veli]

When I started collecting - not so long ago, actually - the nihonto market was full of great opportunities around 2 kUSD price range. Today, I hardly find anything decent priced below 10 kUSD.

 

No, the market has not changed - I have.

 

Veli

[Jean]

To sum up Adrian:

 

- you will have 2 good books to start with. If you know them by heart with full understanding, you will be a learned/experienced/advanced collector.

 

Now, you must see the real thing with someone able to show you all the characteristics of the Japanese sword, how to appreciate them and what makes quality, show you the hataraki..

[Adrian]

Thank you guys for all the good advice I realise that purchasing a sword and having it papered afterwise is far more expensive then buying a similar sword that already has papers.

To be honest, Tony's Wakizashi made me optimistic about the chances to purchase something with decent mounts within my budget. If that one (with papers) was so hard to sell for 800 pounds, I can imagine that 1000 pounds could get me something a bit better if I have enough patience and some luck.

 

Adrian

Not having English as your first tongue, I must say that your written skills are second to none; now your not kidding this old Pilgrim, are you?

 

No I'm not kidding and I don't think my english is perfect either. I also speak french to a reasonable level but lack the sword vocabulary past epee and sabre

[Adrian]

To sum up Adrian:

 

- you will have 2 good books to start with. If you know them by heart with full understanding, you will be a learned/experienced/advanced collector.

 

Now, you must see the real thing with someone able to show you all the characteristics of the Japanese sword, how to appreciate them and what makes quality, show you the hataraki..

 

 

It's like you read my mind Any volunteers?

[Jean]

Concerning French idioma, the vocabulary in this field does not matter as all the technical terms are Japanese. Next time I'll write you in French

[Dr Fox]

Adrian

Go to Forum Nihonto

Topic Shikkake Hada

Read the exchanges between those gentlemen, open all the links spend a good time there. Eavesdropping on those posts is an education. And think when you can converse in those terms, you are a serious student of sword art at its best.

That's where you will find your mentors.

Denis.

[Adrian]

Denis, what makes you think that I don't know the basic Japanese vocabulary relevant for Nihonto? It's not that hard to learn 100 words when you already speak two foreign languages. Having the reflex to use them in a casual conversation is a different thing.

 

It appears to me that my optimistic atitude raised a lot of negativism and maybe at this point it's better that this topic is closed. Again a deep thank you to all those who contributed in a positive manner.

 

 

 

 

Concerning French idioma, the vocabulary in this field does not matter as all the technical terms are Japanese. Next time I'll write you in French

 

D'accord