Second Tsuba from Sloans & Kenyon Estate Auction...

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Here are some photographs I did this afternoon of the second tsuba from the Sloans & Kenyon Estate Auction lot I won. Here is what the auction catalogue said that this tsuba.

Sale 74, Lot 521 Japanese KAMAKURA-BORI TSUBA, Muromachi period, circa 1500. Rounded rectangular iron plate carved on the surface with a dragon on both sides with inlaid eyes, raised rim, probably made for the Chinese market.

I really don't know anything about Kamakura-bori tsuba other then that they don't date from the Kamakura Period but I really enjoy the dragon design with the gold inlay eyes. The surface of the tsuba looks like it has been lacquered at some point in the distant past. The measurements of the tsuba are 8.1 cm (Height) X 7.7 cm (Wide). The thickness at the rim is 4.5 mm and is much thinner at the seppa-dai. I do notice that the kozuka hitsu-ana was I think added later as it disrupts the design of the dragon on the ura side. Comments, constructive criticism, and questions are welcome and thanks for looking.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Pete Klein]

http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/kamakura.htm

[Soshin]

Hi Pete K.,

 

Thanks for the reply with the link. Reading the webpage on "Kamakura Tsuba" at Jim G. website was helpful. The last tsuba that he lists has a very similar dragon design without sukashi that he titles "Possibly proto Kamakura bori tsuba" has many similarities to my tsuba including the stylized design, inlaid eyes, and lack of sukashi. The rim of my tsuba looks more like the other Kamakura bori tsuba list on the webpage. The most notable is comical expression of the head and mane of the dragon.

Well its time to start baking the pizza for the Super Bowl. Go Ravens! :D

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Michael 101]

Hi David,

 

I will not be able to get to my books to confirm this for you until Wednesday - BUT I think you would be better looking towards the Shimizu Jingo school for the maker of your tsuba.

 

The flat round shape - the dote mimi and the hitsu ana shape really do suggest the work of an early Jingo master - I think you may have made a very very good purchase indeed.

 

I now want to see the other tsuba you bought from the sale !!

 

Kind regards

 

Michael Cox

[Curran]

Michael,

 

I know what you're getting at, as this one didn't strike me as Kamakura.

I also see the Jingo hints in the mimi- but am not sure I agree.

This tsuba could use a mild clean-up.

 

Far be it from me to challenge you on the Shimizu-Jingo guys.

I haven't got any Higo books here other than the Hayashi one, so I look forward to your follow-up.

 

David, can you provide any angled photos of it?

 

__________________________________________>

 

Edit: cripes.... the more I look at it, the more I think Michael is eagle eyed.

I wouldn't have picked up on it.

 

Dave, as the main body of the plate moves into the mimi, it the slight curve very convex domed?

Wish I could draw what I mean here on the screen....

I'm gonna feel stupid if this is actually a Jingo experimentation piece.

[Soshin]

Hi Curran,

 

Did the early Jingo school make Chinese style dragons using low relief carving? I really like the dragon design with the gold inlay eyes. The dote-mimi rim also has a interesting design on it which can be seen on my photos if you look closely. I can post more photos tonight after work. If they are not clear I can bring it to the Tampa show in a few weeks for you to see in person. Now it's back to work.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Curran]

I'm not convinced either.

The Jingo boys did love em their rain dragons...

 

Even seeing it in person in Tampa, I don't know that I could make a call on one like this.

[John A Stuart]

Yes, a tough one to nail. I get a Momoyama period namban vibe as well. John

[Soshin]

 

I now want to see the other tsuba you bought from the sale !!

 

Hi Micheal,

 

To answer your question here is a link to the other tsuba in the lot: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14975. Both tsuba came from the same estate.

 

 

 

Hi John,

 

I love early Namban work in Iron. That vibe if true is a good one. :D

 

 

 

Hi Curran,

 

Here are the additional photographs I did very quickly after returning from work with the camera flash. I can email you and Micheal high resolution photographs if you think in would be helpful. Not sure if they are of any help but tsuba is still very photogenic and I love the dragon's expression. The tsubako was very skillful in my opinion.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Soshin]

Dave, as the main body of the plate moves into the mimi, it the slight curve very convex domed?

Wish I could draw what I mean here on the screen....

I'm gonna feel stupid if this is actually a Jingo experimentation piece.

Hi Curran,

 

I never address you question directly and I am not sure if my photos were helpful or not. The rim is raised above the surface of the plate but it is not very convex or domed in shape like my really nice Momoyama Period Namban tsuba. I will be bring both tsuba for you to compare and see what I am talking about at the Tampa show.

I also noticed some interesting this evening after dinner that this tsuba had the rim decoration only on the omote and not on the ura side. The ura side by contrast is smooth. I have no idea what this means.

 

P.S. I been searching the Internet and found the following Higo tsuba with the same shape of rim: http://www.shibuiswords.com/haynesTsu22.htm.

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Curran]

I see what Michael is saying, but I am not convinced.

I'll look at it in Tampa and see if I can agree.

 

Thing is that there were quite a number of capable dilettants producing Higo level work, but playing with their own designs or designs of

other schools. As I read through those sections of the books, I often see things that look partially Higo and partially not.

 

I don't know what this tsuba is at present. Not really Jingo in my eyes, and not Kamakura. I've seen and even owned a very atypical Kamakura tsuba, so I won't rule out that this is just atypical Kamakura bori work.

[Michael 101]

Hi guys,

 

Firstly I must say that my initial comments were made after viewing from my ipod whilst on a business trip and now that Ive had a chance to view on a big screen and see your additional pictures I dont think this is Shimizu Jingo - but its very interesting as it certainly has elements that the Jingo school later used in their designs - such as the dragon, the dote mimi, the design on the mimi and the flat round shape.

 

And looking at it the other way the hitsu could certainly be Jingo influenced but as you already comment - probably a later addition - so could well have been copied from Jingo.

 

The tsuba plate would I think show more curvature (thicker at the seppai dia more slender towards the mimi) and be more heavily worked if it were Shimizu Jingo.

 

I wish I could examine the iron in person to be sure but show Curran at Tampa and Im certain he will be able to help you.

 

Kind regards

 

Michael

[Brian]

Everyone knows I am not an iron tsuba guy, and my comments aren't from any great knowledge. But I will say that I like this one a lot more than the previous one, and think you probably did ok on the whole lot with it. Iron looks good, and the whole composition looks quite charming. Hope the tsuba guys don't shoot me down. But I do like this one.

 

Brian

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for the helpful feedback about the tsuba. It has been very educational. I will be bring it to the Tampa Show to get others opinions in person. I can think of a few people that might be intrested in taking a look at it. I might submit it to the upcoming NTHK shinsa in San Fanisco but I have some time to decide. Searching the Internet for examples I would agree that the kozuka hitsu-ana is shaped like the work of Jingo school but also that it might not have been original to the tsuba. Overall I am getting a strong pre-Edo Period vibe from the tsuba and was a bit surprised by the initial Jingo attribution.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Jiro49]

I was trolling the sword sites and found this jingo example on ricecracker.com..

[Soshin]

Hi Matt L.,

 

You bring up a good point by posting this tsuba which I would consider to be the typical example of the Jingo school workmanship and how they would execute a dragon design. Intresting enough the write up on RiceCracker website say the NBTHK attributed the tsuba to a later generation of the Jingo school. Keep in mind that I am not nearly as well educated as Curran C. and Micheal C. in terms of Higo tsuba. I have mostly just learned things from them.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Curran]

That one is private property now.

Ricecracker.com should take down the image.

 

Yes, the Shimizu-Jingo group were fond of their dragon designs.

[John A Stuart]

I thought you might like to see some namban tsuba other than the pierced variety. Jingo is noted for the dragon theme as well as other schools. I include a dragon theme namban and two others illustrating dotemimi and one illustrating kebori. The other is inlayed but, shows a similar overall identity. Note atoana. Just for thought. John

[Pete Klein]

David -- this is a piece which would be an interesting candidate for shinsa. Having said that I doubt seriously it is Shimizu (the craftsmanship is not in line with Shimizu school work) but it would be interesting to see what the attribution would come back as.

[Ron STL]

Just read the comments on this topic. I enjoy Kamakura tsuba, but this one looks more Hizen or Jingo. Kamakura-bori tsuba are thinner (the similar on on Jim's site is 3mm). I've not seen any with this heavy of a rim and the rim zogan again looks like from around Hizen (with namban influence, as one sees). The dragon is the rain dragon, I believe. Somewhere, I read about the Jingo using a very unique looking dragon, but that reference escapes me. Unfortunately, I will miss Tampa again this year.

Ron STL

[Pete Klein]

Here are two examples from the Ito Mitsuro-san book on Hirata and Shimizu/Jingo:

 

 

These exhibit the more unusual Rain Dragon. Please note in the Jingo example how the mimi fluidly incorporates into the jita. Example after example you will find this transition. If you refer back to the topic head example there is a sharper transition where you can easily visualize the seam which is very squared, thus my comment on the craftsmanship exhibited in Shimizu/Jingo.

[Soshin]

Hi John S.,

 

Thanks for the nice early Namban examples. It is very helpful for the discussion. The first example had a very similar style of rim.

 

Hi Pete K.,

 

Funny thing is you were on my mental list to show this tsuba to at the upcoming Tampa show. Thank you so much for posting photographs of Jingo/Shimizu school example using this style of carving technique on iron plate. A nice observation about that specific attribute of Jingo/Shimizu school in terms of the rim and how it transitions to the surface of the plate. Your examples provides a nice demonstration of this important identification point.

In regards to shinsa I might bump up this tsuba to the April NBTHK shinsa based upon people's feedback about it. Having the results would be very educational.

 

Ron STL,

 

Thanks for the reply. Yes I did not notice the difference in thickness and size of my tsuba compared to the Kamakura-bori example of Jim G. website. I am going to try to get Jim G. feedback about this tsuba at Tampa show as well. Sorry you cannot make it this year.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[MauroP]

Hi everybody,

since I'm a newcomer, I shouldn't bother you with my personal opinion on the tsuba posted by David. Anyway I wish to suggest the following link:

http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2010/1010_6030syousai.htm

The tsuba depicted was papered as Kamakura and, in my opinion, has some features in common with David's tsuba, i.e. the same design on both sides and kōsuki-bori (甲鋤彫) carving. So a Kamakura attribution is not definitely absurd (though the tsuba does not show a Kamakura-bori carving).

I apologize in advance if I just made silly statements.

Bye, Mauro

[Soshin]

Hi Mauro P.,

 

Thanks for the reply and the link to the papered Kamakura tsuba example. The carving style is the same and is referred to as kōsuki-bori (甲鋤彫). This style of carving found on Kamakura tsuba should not be confused with Kamakura bori which is a style of carved lacquerware made in Kamakura and dates from the Kamakura Period. This carved lacquerware from Kamakura can look like the designs applied using the kōsuki-bori (甲鋤彫) technique on iron Kamakura tsuba. I know it sounds a bit confusing but that was how it was explained to me. Here is a Wikipedia article about Kamakura-bori: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakura-bori.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Curran]

Kamakura tsuba can come in many forms.

 

This NBTHK papered one went to someone in the other forum years back. We more often see the landscape ones or the water dragon ones.

[Soshin]

Hi Curran,

 

Thanks I recently sold a unpapered Ko-Umetada tsuba with the same design to someone in France on eBay. My tsuba had iron nanako between the petals of the flower. A member and friend on NMB said that I should not have sold it.

I was comparing your Jingo or Edo Higo tsuba that you are selling on eBay with the tsuba that is the topic of this thread. Here is the link for other peoples reference: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-sword-tsuba-of-Jingo-Higo-school-design-antique-/321073277801?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item4ac1756b69

I think it has a similar shape and style of rim as my tsuba which is different then the rim on the early Namban tsuba I have. Just some ideas that I came up with please feel free to comment or discuss.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[christianmalterre]

David

 

i did not participate yet,as honestly speaking-i do not have an slightest idea about your´s Topic-Tsuba here...

It´s too strange in many aspects...

i but found this one in mine books...maybe of help?(dont´t know)..it somehow does remind me in some way to the your´s...

[christianmalterre]

and this here is for you Curran

 

Hmmh?

[Curran]

Christian,

 

Hmm indeed. I hadn't see this one before. Says third gen Jingo. I would have placed it as 4th gen in the school. Which is I guess correct as 4th gen 'Shimizu' = 1+3rd gen Jingo. My pet theory is 4th gen is heavy handed and prefers thicker gauge on the inlay. The tsuba you show supports my theory. Also not the nakago ana shape top and bottom.

 

Yes, similar to the one I placed on eBay.

[Soshin]

Hi Christian M.,

 

Thanks for the reply and the examples. Yes you might be right about it being a Kamakura tsuba circa the Muromachi (Ashikaga) Period. This is what the auction house was listing it as. I do very much like the rain dragon design on my tsuba better then your book example or for that matter the one on Jim G. website. If Jim G. is at the Tampa I will show this tsuba to him. Sooner then later I will submit it to a formal shinsa for appraisal and post the results on NMB.

Thanks again everyone for the replies to this topic it has been very educational.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles