Confused shopper

[Alex A]

Ive just been having a browse through the internet sites. Ive come across a few katana with 2 sets of papers, NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho and also NTHK estimation paper. Does this mean that the NTHK thought the sword was of poor quality and the NBTHK think the sword was of high quality? I am aware that they judge on different merits, is it a case of the NTHK dismissing the blade because of poor quality work and the NBTHK giving the sword merit for other reasons? I cant understand why the seller would say that it had an estimation paper when it also as a Tokubetsu Kicho paper. Apologies if this as been brought up before.

 

Alex.

[cabowen]

Not sure what an "estimation" paper is. Maybe something getting lost in translation.

[Sam Elliott]

Hi Alex,

 

There are some sellers such as Aoi Art with their own estimation papers, however to the best of my knowledge these have no official binding with either of the governing bodies. Is this what you are talking about?

 

Cheers,

 

Sam

[Jean]

Alex,

 

Sorry but I cannot understand your post. Is it possible for you to clearly state your problem.

 

NBTHK or NTHK papers are written opinions of expert(s) which can be assimilated as estimation.

[Lance]

I think I understand the question, whoever submitted the blade wanted a second opinion and the NTHK papers are probably newer (supposedly some green koshu tokubetsu kicho papers can be questionable) If the NTHK papers were Shinteisho level the judgement would be lower, if Kanteisho level it would be a level similar to NBTHK paper

Below is a chart for comparison of different origami

http://japaneseswordindex.com/origcomp.htm

 

Regards,

Lance

[Alex A]

Hi Jean ,quite straight forward, i was curious as to why the 2 organisations differ so much in there opinions, i am aware that an estimation paper is a low scoring paper (didnt make kanteisho). Sam, yes, ive took another look, certainly says NTHK estimation paper and your right about what im talking about. Thanks again Lance, Sam and Jean.

 

Alex

[Jean]

To All,

 

Concerning Han Bing Siong's papers comparisons, please be very carefull. The table was issued 30 years ago. A lot of things have changed since. At 99% a blade having a Shinteisho shall get a Hozon paper nowadays. One must study carefully the criteria of attribution of each level kanteisho.

 

Now concerning kanteisho, you can submit to the same organization 2/3 times an Osuriage blade at the 1st or 2nd kanteisho level (NBTHK) and get 2 or 3 different attributions.

 

Please, don't submit to shinsa out of polish blades, totally rusted blades, it is a lack of respect and you could failed shinsa or get a shinteisho instead of a Kanteisho.

 

Now dealers have (usually) a good Nihonto knowledge and issue sometimes appraisal - the difference with a kanteisho is that the paper is not issued by an official organisation but by an individual (Fujishiro ...) - read carefully Darcy's article

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/ratings.html

[Curran]

I cringe a bit every time people refer to that old Hahn Bin Song chart.

[Jean]

Me too, Curran

[Alex A]

"Han Bing slong", something else i need to look into!, cheers Jean, seems papers are not as reliable as i thought.

 

Alex.

[Jean]

Han Bing Siong is a legend, he was a very well known respected and talented Nihonto collector/student and was for years at the head of the Dutch Token Society.

 

I shall make a comparison, Han Bing Siong was to the Dutch Token Society what Clive Sinclaire is today to the Token Society of Great Britain.

[Alex A]

Cheers Jean, roger that.

 

Alex

[Lance]

I don't know why anyone would "cringe" at this chart: It's an easy to read comparison of the different levels of papers by both groups and when they were issued. Concern as to wether the different designations line up correctly to current comparison is a valid concern (NTHK Shinteisho starts too low on the chart and maybe hozon should be a little closer to kicho) but it's still useful as a rough outline to answer the original question.

Regards,

Lance

[Clive Sinclaire]

Steady

Han Bing Siong is a legend, he was a very well known respected and talented Nihonto collector/student and was for years at the head of the Dutch Token Society.

 

I shall make a comparison, Han Bing Siong was to the Dutch Token Society what Clive Sinclaire is today to the Token Society of Great Britain.

 

Steady Jean, Steady now and calm down dear boy!

 

Actually I used to know Han Bing Siong quite well and bought a Hizen Tadakuni from him sometime in the 1970's which I still have. Some 20 years after I had bought if he asked me if I would like the koshirae for it, which I was unaware even existed! He gave me a fine kyu-gunto that is illustrated on the front cover of one of Richard Fuller's books on military swords. Apparently he now believed that I was unlikely to sell the blade for a quick profit and truely appreciated it.

Clive Sinclaire

[Alex A]

Another Hizen tadakuni blade, popular smiths this week, i have Tadakuni 1st wak, now thats 4 Tadakunis on here in 2 days, great blades!

 

Alex.