A little bit light

[Brian]

Pete,

I have been mulling over the ones you posted. Am posting the close up of the Bonhams one here. Are you sure the other one you posted is the same as the one in the Gifu book? Looks close, but not the same. Must say, I really don't like the one you posted. It looks like it was painted with watercolours or shoe black!

Then again, I am not a huge fan of either of them. The Bonhams one looks like someone went overboard with the "bling" However it looks to be identical to the one you posted...but without the added shoe polish or paint. Are they the same tsuba before/after?

None of these look like true shakudo either...all patinas look fake.

Maybe I just have a thing against this style of tsuba. The nanako isn't well done, and the detail isn't there. What am I missing in those you posted?

 

Brian

 

[Pete Klein]

They are all the same tsuba.

[Brian]

I had considered that...but there are some differences in the published one. The sekigane don't match and the shape of the nakago ana isn't the same. Someone had really messed with it..maybe multiple times? Are we sure that all 3 are the same tsuba? 2 are for sure...

 

[Pete Klein]

All the same, even the sekigane. Look closer. It's been stepped on big time. I'll explain in a bit but I want for those reading to investigate the images first. There's a big lesson here.

Also, watch this -- it's excellent and worth the time: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-s ... d%3D265337

 

Here's the ura:

[Brian]

Hmmmm...

 

Brian

[Geraint]

Not to get in the way of the discussion about those three tsuba but back to the original that Uwe posted. I have heard these described as Nagoya mono, have a look at this brief link, http://www.shibuiswords.com/nagoyamono.htm I have always associated these with the very large, almost crude nanako around the hitsu and mimi and the sue of nigurome rather than shakudo.

 

Also I note that the blade is dismissed as gimei but perhaps it too is worthy of a little more scrutiny?

[John A Stuart]

I see that possibility with the original tsuba posted reddish colour bleeding through or really poor shakudo, I can assure you that the tsuba I posted is shakudo and not kuromido or nigurome. I think, Ford may know for sure, both of those alloys are low % arsenical bronzes and when patinated are a distinctive colour apart from shakudo. When worn uttori can look bad and has a lot to do with how it was applied and the thickness. What was done to the tsuba Pete posted is quite amazing. John

[Pete Klein]

OK -- here's the story. Several months ago this tsuba was listed on Yahoo! Japan. No claims or attributions were attached. I noticed that it was most likely Mino and possibly Ko Mino which in either case would be quite a find. I went to my reference library and found that it was listed in the 1993 Gifu Museum book, 'Kinko Mino Bori'. Eureka! What a find. As I always do I downloaded the pictures and magnifyed them and all the minute marks on both tsuba were identical. There was a difference in the color as the one in the book was black where this had gold but I felt it was possible that either the picture was poor or possibly it had been covered with a blackening agent which had now been removed which would also explain the rather weird look of the auction piece. I won the auction and upon receipt I thought that my theory on the blackening was correct and that someone had done a partial restoration. I spent a full afternoon carefully removing the water soluble color from the goldwork on the omote and planned to continue the next day with the ura. Come next morning, still the proud father I was reading here on NMB where there was a post referring to 'Mino Goto', a term I have always had some doubts about. I googled Mino Goto and there came up the picture of the Bonham's auction example. Well, if I ever wondered what the term 'Gobb Smacked' meant I learned it that morning. I literally sat staring at the screen in total disbelief, trying to rationalize what I was seeing. I then looked at the tsuba with a high magnification loupe and lo and behold what I thought was gold was -- paint! Apparently the tsuba from the auction had been stripped of it's silver and gold and then painted over to look old. Whoever did it really went to a lot of work and it payed off for them. What angered me was not so much making the mistake but that someone had destroyed a piece of art. Now honestly I don't like the example in the Bonham's auction either and would never have bought it but it still deserves to be respected. Now here's what I learned. No matter how much one knows or experience they have they can always make errors in judgement, especially when making incorrect assumptions such as I did that the piece was legitimate because it had been published. This clouded my judgement because I rationalized the coloration problem in the wrong direction. I believe that the only real mistake is to not learn from the mistakes we make so after a bit of time waiting for the proper moment I decided to post this as a cautionary tale about buying on-line. I hope it will help the uninitiated.

 

 

PS: I still wonder why the piece was blackened and then exhibited as Ko Mino. Just another Gypsy mystery I suppose, or possibly a ringer thrown in for nefarious intent.

 

PPS: sorry for stealing the thread! Mea culpa.

[John A Stuart]

Good story Pete, shameful act. koMino many times the price of later Mino-bori. I have seen koMino juyo kogai hitting over $10,000. I have been searching lately. John

[Pete Klein]

BTW: the one you saw on Tetsugendo.com/Facebook was mine at one point. It's really something special. The jita is not inset but carved from the frame. Classic Ko Mino work worthy of Juyo rank.

[christianmalterre]

still like and use "Mino Goto"

The correct(?) name to use would but be Waki-Goto Not?

(any Goto work by an artist of a line other than the Shirobei)

(Compton Part I, Nr. 147,151,167/Part II,Nr. 131,132,133,134,135,136)

 

Christian

[Pete Klein]

Waki Goto (same as Kyo Goto) are specific schools of fittings makers aligned with the Shirobei line, being the Kihei, Hishi, Shichirobei, Gonbei, Kanbei, Sehei, Jinbei, Jizaemon, Rihei, Hachirobei, Shichirouemon, Tarouemon, Genbei, Sabrouemon, Hanzaemon, and I believe the Seijo family. It is my understanding that they are blood related to the Shirobei, often being sons of the mainline masters other than the first (who would be named Shirobei Master) or decendants. Mino Goto to me is more of a style and not linked to the Goto family directly. Kaga Goto however is related as the Shirobei masters Tokujo, Kenjo and Teijo worked for the Maeda family directly.

[christianmalterre]

rather Kaga-Goto then?(Kuwamura and/or Katsuki)

others i do not see/know then eventually fitting to the Your´s Pete)(?)

Possible?

(those did generally but sign their´s works-such speaking, am puzzeled....

 

Christian

[Pete Klein]

Those are family names. The artists have their own names which you would reference. For example, Goto Ichijo is of the Shichiroemon family bloodline but was adopted to become head of the Hachirobei family.

[christianmalterre]

O.K. Pete!

This does give matter for further investigation....

Chris

[Pete Klein]

Christian -- this is the go to book for Kyo Goto:

 

[christianmalterre]

Gotta!

Me

[John A Stuart]

I second Pete's recommendation. I have the 1988 edition. Indispensable if you study Goto and it's side branches. John

[CSM101]

Hello,

 

I just wanted to thank you all for your comments. Now I feel "enlighted". It was very interesting to follow all thoses hints, links and sources and now I know a lot more about kodogu than before.

 

So, once again: THANK YOU!

 

Uwe G.