A little bit light

[CSM101]

Last weekend I visited a friend and he showed me his newest sword. It is just a piece of steel (gimei) but the koshirae is very nice.

 

We discussed it and he thinks, this is Goto. For me, it looks more like Higo Kinko. But in the end, we will be both wrong. Because we both have no knowledge about kodogu. And so,maybe it is just GoTo-hell-with-that-crap.

 

I post here the photos and I hope someone can tell me, what it is and why it is, what it is. I will just post the tsuba, If you need more photos, please, let me know.

 

Thank you

 

Uwe G.

[Thierry BERNARD]

mino-goto

[Brian]

Which is certainly not real Goto.

 

Brian

[NihontoEurope]

Brian,

 

What is real Goto?

 

What is the difference between Mino-Goto and the other?

 

/Martin

[Jean]

Martin,

 

It won't help you giving any answer if you don't study/see/compare examples.

 

Mino Goto means in the style of Goto, shakudo, nanako, and overall flowers/bugs motives

 

Goto is marvellous, deep black shakudo, fine chiselling, gold inlays ...

 

Search examples on the web and come back to us with your observations.

 

To sum up, Mino Goto is to Goto what Canada Dry is to Whisky. (I am a bit unjust to Mino Goto, there are some fine examples)

[NihontoEurope]

Jean,

 

Thanks - I don't enjoy whiskey, but I got the point ( :

 

I did search for "Goto Tsuba" and obviously many results. Checking the images I found one Tsuba that I recognised from my collection.

 

Is this a Mino-Goto or a "real"?

[attachment=0]products_1154_1_medium.jpg[/attachment]

 

 

I will try to find some more info.

 

/Martin

[Jean]

Neither schools.

 

A good overview of what tsuba schools look like

 

http://www.arco-iris.com/George/tsuba.htm

 

Ko-Mino

 

http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/b00071.html

 

Goto

 

http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00187.html

 

Look at the difference in the nanako

[NihontoEurope]

Jean,

 

Thank you.

 

The Acro-Iris page was excellent for me.

 

A few schools I can detect easy, but this was an eye opener.

 

/Martin

[Travis Clarke]

Martin,

 

This doesn't have much to do with your initial question, but here's a complete set that's worth a look. http://www.nihonto.com/11.8.12.html

[raiden]

gentlemen please check works of the kozenshi school. many of which get confused as either Goto or Mino.

[raiden]

there is a huge difference in quality of workmanship as well as material.Start with the nanako and work your way up to the actual work and metals used.

[docliss]

I too am surprised that Thierry’s Mino Goto attribution has not been questioned. In my opinion, the lack of delicacy; the absence of a nanako-ji;and the lack of depth of the decoration all preclude such an attribution. These observations, together with the crude, gilded mimi and ryō-hitsu surrounds, are indicative of Nagoya-mono rather than Mino Goto work. I am sure that, if we could see the seppa-dai, this tsuba would be seen to not be of shakudō.

 

John L.

[John A Stuart]

I have a fondness for Goto and Minobori and also would be inclined to slot this as shiremono/hamamono. It just hasn't got that quality of the real deal. John

[Jean]

http://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-mumeiunsigned-mino-school

[CSM101]

So, here is another photo of the tsuba and I hope that Mino-Goto is still a possibility.

 

Uwe G.

[Jean]

I doubt

[Pete Klein]

From Bonhams 2009 Mino Goto:

 

[christianmalterre]

concerning an ranging to an specific school i rather tend to say no classical Kinko at all-rather an latter Shoami school piece.

relating it´s age i tend to say late to very late Edo.

Sorry-there´s already an real Mino Goto piece shown here by Pete-and in browsing,you may find plenty of others by picture...

Do compare workmanship and you will very soon see the differences...

(But hey-we do have an Kinko-Front "league" of collectors here-it´s up to us "Sukashi"-Front guys so to answer here?)(?)

 

Christian

[Brian]

No..I don't think so..missing the nananko and I don't think that is shakudo. But a call for Mino Goto wouldn't be preferable anyways in this particular case..it's not a better call than Hamamono and Mino Goto really doesn't have anything to do with true Goto, although as Pete showed there are some very nice Mino Goto examples.

 

Brian

[docliss]

There appears to be a general consensus that Uwe’s tsuba is not Mino Goto. I know of no example of this group that possesses a heavy, gilt-nanako decoration of the mimi and/or the ryō-hitsu, and there is no such tsuba illustrated in the Gifu Museum of History catalogue, Kinko Mino Chō (1993). This is a flashy, late Edo innovation, appealing to Western tastes.

 

John L.

[Pete Klein]

How about this one then:

 

It's in the Gifu book John mentioned, pg. 30, middle:

 

Oh, and BTW, here's the link to the Bonham's one above: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/16717/lot/334/

 

Better picture as you can magnify it.

[Thierry BERNARD]

http://tsuba.jyuluck-do.com/TU10555.html

[John A Stuart]

Here is my Mino tsuba mounted on a koshirae ensuite with Mino fittings. It is well made, but, not of Momoyama age, rather Edo period. John

 

BTW, The OP tsuba shows a slightly related stylisation related to what we see with Minobori and never minding the quality, but, keeping it in mind I have yet to see a Mino-bori treatment of botan and shishi within the school. J

 

Here is one for sale by Aoi-Art http://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-mumeiunsigned-mino-school

[John A Stuart]

Sometimes we see Minobori and Mino-Goto bandied about indiscriminately. I do it myself and it doesn't really hurt, but, to be absolutely correct, the typical autumn flowers and bug theme of Mino fittings should not have the Goto appellation affixed. As is well documented, Goto Yujo (Nyudogo) (Shirobei), the founder of the mainline Shirobei Goto was born in Gifu and taught the Minobori style. Now, what he did was to innovate a new style particular to himself that became appreciated by his customers and others. What I am not sure of is, did the Kyoto kanagushi have a significant influence in his new style or was it in its' formative stages in Mino? I am of the opinion his style matured after moving to Kyoto. What I also believe is that the influence of Goto style influenced the later Minobori artists. These artists were the inheritors of the style of earlier tachikanagushi and the Goto influence can be seen in the increased use of kiniroe and uttori. Just my thoughts guys, so, make your own decision. John

[Jean]

I have a very good friend who has written a few lines on this school :

 

http://www.johnstuart.biz/new_page_11.htm

[John A Stuart]

Hi Jean, I should add more to that and fix the spelling, oops! John

[Pete Klein]

I have the feeling the the term, 'Mino Goto' is non-Japanese as I've never seen it used in the literature from Japan and do not remember ever seeing it on origami. I could be wrong of course but if so I'd like to see the resources.

[cabowen]

Try a google search using 美濃後藤

 

and you will find many examples of MinoGoto used in Japan...

 

Here is one example:

 

http://www.aoijapan.jp/%E7%B8%81%E9%A0% ... B%E3%82%92

[docliss]

Jean, I am very sorry but your link to http://www.johnstuart.biz does not work for me. John L.

[Jean]

I cannot understand John as this website appears at the end of each John A Stuart's post.

 

I believe the Mino-Goto school developed from Mino-bori which was the school Goto Yujo studied. Upon his retirement Yujo returned to Mino no Kuni and with his style created the mainline Goto Shirobei line of fittings makers. I think his influence on Mino-bori artists outside of his direct line created what can be termed the Mino-Goto school.