Nobuie Signature

[Henry Wilson]

Attached is a chart that most of us have probably already seen that illustrates signatures by the first and second Nobuie.

 

My question is which are examples of the first and which are the second? It is easy to assume the top line the first and the bottom the second but there appears to be a mixture of styles.

 

 

I propose: 1st generation

1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8

 

2nd generation

2, 4, 9, 10

 

What are other people's thoughts?

[Shimazu]

Just my opinion, and sacrilege I know, but I see more than two ‘hands’ here.

[Pete Klein]

Can't Andy figure it out?

[Henry Wilson]

Hi Jack. Thanks for the comment. I am pretty sure there are only two hands illustrated. Which do you think are done by other hands? If you don't want to post your thoughts you can PM me.

 

Cheers.

[Pete Klein]

LOL!

[Henry Wilson]

LOL at what? PM me if you are too shy. :D

[Pete Klein]

Oh -- nothing at all. I just wanted to get your attention.

[Henry Wilson]

Why?

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Henry,

 

Your readings are correct: 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 are the hanare-mei; 2, 4, 9, and 10 are the futoji-mei.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Henry Wilson]

Thanks Steve. Much appreciated.

[Shimazu]

Henry,

I agree with your groupings of 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 2, 4, 9, 10, but to my eye the variation within the two groups is just too great for me to accept just two ‘signers’. Just my opinion, nothing more.

[Henry Wilson]

Thanks Jack for your thoughts. Have you read this?

 

http://www.shibuiswords.com/tsuba.htm#nobuiye

[Steve Waszak]

I think we need to keep in mind a couple of things when considering variations in mei as regards a particular artist. First, of course, is to examine the work itself. Do all of the workmanship markers which combine to identify a particular tsubako come together convincingly in a given piece? If the mei on that piece exhibits some slight variation in stroke placement, depth, angle, etc..., do we then discount that piece as genuine? If those workmanship markers are present, and they are distinctive to that artist, then I do not discount the work as authentic.

 

Next, if we grant that a particular artist may be working and signing his tsuba over a period of 30, 40, or even 50 years, it is not too much of a stretch to imagine that there will be variations in his mei. There are pronounced and "officially recognized" variations in the mei of the shodai Hoan and of the "nidai" Yamakichibei. In the end, then, relatively minor shifts in details of a mei are not enough to say a piece is gimei, not when keeping the above in mind. All IMHO, of course...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[christianmalterre]

This is pretty logic!

(and of course sole realistic answer,jbw)

Fully do agree with you Steve!

 

Cheers!

 

Have you seen those Nobuie by Náprstek Collection and the 3 in Halberstadt Collection?

(Henry-you may add 3 further "variant" Signatures to your´s chart easily!)

 

Christian

[Pete Klein]

I agree with Steven fully. With Nobuie it is interesting to note that, as Akiyama classified seven different mei occur; one Hanare, four Futoji, a wide spaced and another which has since been discounted. When viewing the Hanare mei one notices some variations as would befit a longer range of production. The four now grouped as 'Futoji' mei (Futoji, Sakei, Katchu and Sumari) exhibit a different character than the Hanare: shorter and bolder in execution, which were most likely 'second' generation works. Almost all exhibit higher to highest levels of craftsmanship. I have to wonder if the 'Nobu' comes from Oda Nobunaga, as production at Kyosu Castle in Owari would be logical? (Nobu-iye = family of Nobu). Time of fabrication and production of Kirishitan motif tsuba as seen in some early Hanare mei works would fall in line with Nobunaga Oda's rule. I find it interesting that the Nobuie tsuba fell out of production relatively quickly. I must wonder if the fall of Nobunaga and the rise of the soon-to-be anti-Christian Hideyoshi prompted the cessation of production under the Nobuie brand? Difficult to elucidate but a most interesting question none the less. The rise of 'Kaneiye' following would then make sense, with their cultural throw-back Chinese motifs lending tacit aesthetic validation to the Taiko's sense of 'Taste'...

[Henry Wilson]

Thanks gents. Most interesting!