Shimazu-maedate!

[Viper6924]

Here´s a maedate I just laid my hands on. Dare I ask the boards opinion on the age :D The back looks fairly old.

There is a golden textile thread under the mon. I also found a kanji on the back. Haven´t the slightest clue what it could mean.

Fire away!!!

 

 

Jan

[Justin Grant]

The kanji can simply mean "up or top" if you take it at the simplest meaning.

 

Ue or Jou are the two basis readings.

 

Age, that is for the experts... I am not qualified.

[uwe]

Hi Jan,

very nice maedate. The kanji can be an armorers mark. Found a similar one in Chappelears book pg. 23 read as "jo" (another reading would be "kami"). But believe me, you don`t need this maedate ........... I`m the shimazu guy here

Uwe

 

PS: Green of envy :rotfl:

[Luc T]

Jan, it is rather old for a maedate. I think mid edo. Most maedate are late edo or meiji.

[Bugyotsuji]

Your link below pic 2 does not work for me.

 

Edit: Now it does!

 

Thanks for posting. It stimulates the juices of imagination.

[Viper6924]

Thanks for Your input, guys.

Now I just need to get hold of a matching Kabuto with Shimazu-mon. Perhaps You can hook a brother up, Uwe :D :D :D

Very interesting about that single kanji. The size of it makes me think it´s the armorers mark for "up". Don´t think they would dare write "kami" with such a small kanji. Learning something every day.

 

Thanks!

 

Jan

[uwe]

"Shimazu clan"-European branch

Seriously, "up" makes no sense IMHO. I`m almost convinced that it is an armorers mark. Moreover, i think the maedate could be a bit older than Edo. If you looking for an matching kabuto, check out Morisaki`s site. But don`t trouble you with an inquiry, the asking price is imposing

Good luck (shimazu san)

Uwe

[Viper6924]

I have seen the kabuto at Morisakis. I will take Your word regarding the offered price :D

The thing that I found most unusual was the golden textile thread under the mon.

I haven´t been able to se that in any other maedate in my books. Perhaps it´s hard to discovery in the pictures. Can be mistaken for metal, I guess.

Judging from the black rust on the backside, it could def be older than Edo. But it´s hard to come to clear answer on that one.

Perhaps Ian can give us his 2 cents on this

 

 

Jan

[uwe]

....pic 2. Now I know what you mean. Indeed not often seen....rather, never seen before :D

Obviously a task for the more experienced. Inasmuch they just don`t make their catnaps

Uwe

[Viper6924]

Kickstarting an old thread I was reading one of my books last night and found an interesting piece of info.

Apparently they have found marks on dif armor parts dating from as far back as the thirteenth century that they think refers to specific schools or makers.

As I understand this was mostly made in kabutos but also found on other parts of the armor.

There was two marks that are supposed to refer to armorers in the Nara region. One of the two is exactly the same as on this maedate. This mark stand for "ue".

The other one looks like a capital T and stands for "tei".

Perhaps nothing to do with the maedate in question but an interesting piece of fact. I also of course wonder if a Shimazu-clan maedate could have been made in Nara or if this would have been handled in Shimazu controlled territory.

And the golden textile thread on this maedate is stil a bit of a mystery to me

 

Jan

[IanB]

Jan, Your maedate is splendid, but as to age -who knows? Judging from its appearance it looks to have considerable age, but that could be just the life it has had. For some reason almost all the helmets I ever get my hands on have the maedate missing - I suspect that somewhere there is a warehouse full of the darned things.

As for the potential age and textile component of your maedate - the Tensho Mission from Japan to Europe gave King Philip of Spain an armour in 1585 that is described in a movement order of 1603 instructing a Franciso Berdugo to transfer the armour from the Palace to the Armoury. The document says it had:- A black morion (open helmet) of the same, with a mask -?- and a crest of gilded leather and in the front a gold cross on a green field and in front two tufts (or tails) (of) black hair, and a (baruas?) in black and white.. This armour is now in the Royal Armouries in Leeds but sadly missing its crests. The helmet in question is a zunari kabuto with two large prongs (tsunamoto) on the top of the bowl that held the crest of gilded leather (actually described in the text as a panache - these were commonly used in Europe on such things as tournament helmets). On the front was a maedate of the Shimazu kamon (described by the clerk as 'a cross of that country' ) 'on a green field'. The armour still retains a few kanamono with the old Shimazu kamon of the character 'ju' in a circle. The green field is unlikely to have been metallic or lacquer so I can only think that this was of openwork gilded copper backed with a leather or textile. On either side of this was what is described as 'tufts, bunches (like a little girls' hair) or tails' of black hair. This I interpret as being a pair of kuwagata shapes, but covered in black fur with the kamon between them. In fact very similar in overall conception to yours. What the 'baruas' in black and white was I cannot imagine - possibly a helmet cord. I recently saw a helmet at an arms fair with a helmet cord made from two colours of hemp cloth rolled into cords and twisted together like a rope. This would accord with the description but I have yet to find the term baruas. With this kind of description you must realise the poor old clerk writing out the document had no idea what he was dealing with and just used words that seemed appropriate to him.

Ian Bottomley

[Viper6924]

Wow, Ian! Once more You deliver some really interesting facts. I also managed to dig out a picture with a woodprint of Shimazu Yoshihisa. He is wearing a maedate similar in fashion to mine with the mon raised up on some kid of floral motif.

What do You make of the mark on the inside. Do You think that they could have made this piece in Nara or was it made more locally? Perhaps a hard question to answer

 

Thanks again, Ian!

 

Jan

[IanB]

Jan, The mark is interesting. Although it can mean 'top' or 'upper', I cannot see someone trying to put the maedate on upsidedown so I don't think it is being used in that context. As has been mentioned it occurs inside helmets before signatures were common as a quality indicator. Again it seems improbable that it is being used on a maedate with that meaning. One possibility is that it is being used to indicate the association of the maedate with a particular helmet. If there were several similar maedate and helmets kept together, it would seem sensible to mark them to show which belonged to which. That being the case, I would have expected numbers - but who knows? Perhaps it shows this maedate belongs to a more superior helmet or a helmet marked in the same way.

Ian Bottomley

[Viper6924]

I agree with You, Ian. And how I would like to have that kabuto to which

this maedate one time belonged. Or what do You say, Uwe :D

 

Jan

[uwe]

[Viper6924]

Nuff said!!!

 

:D :D :D

 

Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

The more the merrier? Gilt leather.

 

(NB There were already two holes in the diagonal position, so I used them to pin it harmlessly to the pistol stand.)

[IanB]

Sadly it is impossible to guess what the kashira date was like but gilded leather was the normal material being strong and light. Judging by the size of the tsunamoto it was something reasonably tall. I had thought an ichi no tani shape but doubt that a European would call it a panache. They tended to be tall and fairly narrow, often jewelled or similarly decorated. Sadly the illustration by Jan and your kamon Piers are the wrong one. The armour was made when the Shimazu used the character ju separated from the circular frame. For years the Royal Armouries thought the kamon on the kanamono was a Christian cross in a circle (and they really do look like one) but with a glass you can see they have a tick at the base of the upright.

Ian B

[Viper6924]

Could You show the difference between the "old" Shimazu-mon

and the one they adopted later, Ian?

I guess they must have changed it in the middle of the 17th

century when the christian faith was banned by the shogunate.

 

Jan

[IanB]

Jan, I have pulled this off the internet but it is almost the same as that on the armour. The major difference is that the armour version has the lower leg rather more extended, and hence looks Christian, and has the outer ends of the arms expanded. The family changed to the form that Piers' piece has during the Momoyama to avoid being thought Christian. Remember Hideyoshi proscribed the religion - although he didn't really enforce his ban.

Ian

[Viper6924]

Ian, I have seen this mon on several banners and also on some jingasas and ashigaru armors.

But I have also seen the old "cross" on many items from the later Edo-period. A bit confused

What was the meaning in the beginning behind the cross in the circle mon that the Shimazu used?

 

 

Jan

[IanB]

Jan, Simply the character for 10 - 'ju' in a circle. Why it was chosen I don't know. You can see why they changed it if you imagine the above with the lower leg extended. As I have said, on the kanamono of the armour is a small tick at the base of the lower leg but it is almost invisible unless you are looking for it. Just when the Shimazu changed their kamon I don't know. The Tensho Mission left Japan in 1582 with the armour as a gift so it was in use before that date. One of the daimyo funding the trip was Otomo Sorin (he was baptised as Francisco at the time) who fought the Shimazu at Mimigawa in 1578 when I assume he obtained the armour (it does have minor battle damage on the left kote). So it seems the Shimazu were still using the old form at that date. Hideyoshi had 26 Christians killed in 1597 to discourage conversion to that religion so I would suggest that is when the Shimazu changed their kamon. Why it occurs on later Edo period items I don't know - perhaps for nostalgic reasons when the Christianity problem had far less importance.

Ian B

[Viper6924]

Well, I think You managed to answer all my questions, Ian. I´ve seen the "tick" You talk about. Very easy to miss sometimes.

This also means that my maedate might be pre 1597 if I´m lucky.

But I know that guessing the age on a maedate is like entering a minefield with a blindfold;

it might blow up in Your face

 

Thanks again, Ian!

 

Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

Does the tick go left or right, Ian? If left, then the Christian possibility is strong.

[Bazza]

G'day All. I don't think I can add much at all to this thread except in the matter of the small UE character on the back of the maedate. I haven't checked, but I'm sure this must also be a mon and I have attached photos of a wakizashi seen a few years ago with such a character appearing as if it is a mon. I guess it could also simply be a decorative element. On the Italian sword forum (now defunct??), last time I looked its opening page showed an armour in an exhibition that had the same character on the DOU, so I guess it is a mon in that context.

 

Best regards,

BaZZa.

[Bugyotsuji]

Nice bits!

 

上 in a circle generally indicates some branch of the Murakami family, including the Murakami Suigun pirates of the Inland Sea. In this sense there is not likely to be a Murakami Mon on the back of a Shimazu Maedate.