Hi - I found a nihonto - who can help?

[Jock]

Hi,

 

I found this blade and would like to ask you for your professional advise. I don't know anything about it - I took the handle off and couldn't find a signature on the blade - only the inscription on the handle-wood (see pic) - Thank you for your time and help any information is appreciated - I kept them fairly big that you can see the details.

 

Please let me know what you think about this sword and what kind of information you need for a proper analysis..Attached you will find some pics - e-mail me at theroadbuilder@yahoo.co.uk for any additional or more detailed pics.....Thank you very much for your help.

 

- The measurement from tip to end of the cutting edge (the notch

there). = 72.9 cm so just 1mm short of 73 cm

 

- total length = 93.9 cm so just 1 mm short of 94 cm

 

- point length = 3.1 cm so just 1 mm longer than 3 cm

 

- tang length = 21 cm

 

- curvature (overall including tang to the end) = 1,5 cm = 15 mm

 

- curvature without tang (point to where the tang begins) = 0.8 cm = 8 mm

 

- blade width just before the tang = 2.9 cm = 29 mm

 

Please let me know if you need any additional details....

 

I really appreciate your help

 

Regards,

 

Jock

 

 

PS: It took me 20 years to get it - so I have no intention to sell it - but I would appreciate if you could give me as much as possible on information and a realistic value for it - just for my own interest.

[Brian]

Jock,

 

Need the pics to be able to help. If they didn't upload, they may be too big. Check the how-to section for help uploading them, or use imageshack. You can edit your own post to add the pics instead of replying with a new post.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Jock]

here some pics

[Jock]

more pics

[Jock]

more pics

[Jock]

more pics

[AndreasU]

Nice Piece!

 

I like the Koshirai and the Tsuba! I am not enough expert to help you with the value but even that it is not in the best condition and needs a polish it seems to be done from a good swordsmith!

 

Better to have a Mumei one with nice quality than to have a gimei signed one with bad quality!

[Mark]

The shape of the blade (somewhat straight and tapering with smaller tip) suggest it may be Kanbun era, circa 1660's, there were a lot of very long swords made then that have since been shortened. The Koshirae looks like Higo style.

 

Mark Jones

[Nobody]

Hi,

 

The koshirae looks Han-dachi Koshirae to me.

[mike yeon]

Looks like you got yourself a nice piece. I want to say shinto because of the big nie/hamon and the boshi/turnback looks very osaka shinto/yasutsugu school. But then the length of your blade at 28" and o'suriage make it an unusual length for a shinto piece. The tapering and small kissaki also looks koto. But I am going to stick to shinto.

 

The menuki is a kiri mon (a heraldic badge related to the imperial household dating back to the kamakura period but used throughout history.) I once owned a gimei kagemitsu that had similar menuki.

 

In any case, get it in the hands of someone knowledgeable (as pictures are not the best way to kantei or price something). Let us know where you're located and forum members can advise you on clubs/reputable dealers in your area.

 

Good luck and nice piece.

 

mike

[Jock]

Hi, I live in Coffs Harbour - lovely Australia that is...... still looking for somebody in this part of the planet who would be able to meet up with me to give me his knowledgeable opinion.... Jock

[jester78]

Jock there is a guy in Brisbane that might be able to help you his name is John Summerville. He has been collecting for along time and I call him for info or any questions I have

 

J Harris

[shaun]

Hi J.Harris,

I would be very interested in talking to John about a nihonto I own. Would you be willing to put me in touch with him or contact him on my behalf.

Reply via a PM to keep things private if you want.

Cheers

Shaun

[Jock]

Hi, I have received and compiled the following statements - please have a read and let me know what you think is correct and what is in-correct - thank you very much for your helpful advise!

 

 

FITTINGS:

The sword is a suriage Katana in Higo Handachi koshirae (Edo period), that means a cut down long sword in a style of fittings used in the Higo Province of Japan, and in a part 'ceremonial style' that is usually worn blade up through the sash at the waist, but still retaining the ceremonial tachi look' of a slung sword worn at court.

Han-dachi Koshirae - The fittings are a style called Handachi (so-called "handachi" mountings; this is a half way between an katana (civilian mount) and tachi (worn with armor). and from what I can see are good quality valued from approx $1000-1500.

 

All of the fittings including the guard (tsuba) are matching and en suite. HANDACHI - tachi mountings used on a katana "Endo Period" =1600-1876. The fittings are Higo styled. Higo is a province on the southern island of Kyushu where this style was popularized. The gold onlay work on top of the iron base metal is called "Higo Zogan" and is a style still practiced in that region to this day in the manufacture of various vases, desk top boxes, etc.

The loops on the saya (scabbard) are of an uncommon design meant to have dual utility. In the postition they are in the picture (together at the central seam) the sword is meant to be worn edge up. If one is separated and slid down the saya slightly, then it provides the ability to wear the sword "slung" edge down in tachi fashion. It is speculated that this is a rare equipment provision for those occasionally riding horseback to accommodate continued wear of their sword without changing to an alternate style of mountings. The menuki mon (emblem on the stud in the middle of the handle) shows the acorn - which was the Tokugawa mon (crest). menuki is the mon of the Takatora family. The menuki is a kiri mon (a heraldic badge related to the imperial household dating back to the kamakura period but used throughout history.) (katana mounts that look like a tachi). The fittings are of some interest, and appear to be a matching set or at least a matching style, but they're certainly newer than the blade.

 

The inscription on the tsuka or saya is a makers signature. The inscription is done in grass script, and this is very hard to read. Like messy handwriting. The left side I can't read, the right side has some numbers in it... 3 something, 2 something, 20.

 

TANG: Two main possibilities. Most likely the lower one was the original hole before shortening. That would say that it was circa 31-32" originally (very long for a Kanbun Shinto Katana), or it was a secondary peg hole (mekugi-ana) for added strength when used for (test-)cutting. Given the length and that such long blades are unusual in Kanbun era, that's definitely a possibility. The end of the tang appears to have a slight curve to it, which might say it wasn't shortened, but was made that way. The tang suggest that the blade length was shortened from the original length. The slant file mark on the tang and the hole in the area is original. The right angle file mark and the hole in it is a newly shaped tang and new hole. And cut the end of the tang off.

The work was done more than hundred years ago. Please study the hamon, is it running into the tang? If so, the blade must be shortened in the past. It would appear to be earlier than 1600.

 

BLADE:

I think it is a koto blade. "KOTO - Old Sword Period (prior to about 1596) That would say that it was circa 31-32" originally (very long for a Kanbun Shinto Katana), or it was a secondary peg hole (mekugi-ana) for added strength when used for (test-) cutting. Given the length and that such long blades are unusual in Kanbun era, that's

definitely a possibility. The end of the tang appears to have a slight curve to it, which might say it wasn't shortened, but was made that way. The temper line "idari togari (irregular pointed). Polish is ok; I'd say in 80% polish from the photos (very minor tip chip, some minor scuffing and stains, etc). Low curvature. Especially with short point suggests Kanbun Shinto. My best guess (given lack of change of rust colour/patina on the tang where it was cut down) would be a long kanbun shinto (circa 1660) katana that was slightly shortened, or maybe an older tachi that was shortened a lot

(by the distance between the two peg holes) in the 1600/1700's. The sword is a suriage Katana in Higo Handachi koshirae ...... that means a cut down long sword in a style of fittings used in the Higo Provence of Japan, and in a part 'ceremonial style' that is usually worn blade up through the sash at the waist, but still retaining the ceremonial tachi 'look' of a slung sword worn at court.

 

 

The sword blade looks to me to be from the mid 16th century, specifically in a period called "kanbun" (about 1661), and has been shortened from the tang end approximately four to five inches. This is not altogether uncommon, and any signature it may have had was likely lost during that event. A cursory lob of my opinion is that it may be from the Echizen Yasutsugu school as it has some characteristics of this school. The whole-blade picture helps a lot. I'm now pretty certain of Kanbun Shinto (1660's or so).

 

If you are interested in value I would estimate that your sword, assuming the mounts are in good condition is worth $6,000 to $10,000 in US dollars, maybe even more if the blade is really good, maybe less if it has problems

[Jock]

Thank you all for every contribution - every bit helps! - some more pics....the last ones! Jock

[John A Stuart]

Hi Jock, You have compiled some interesting facts, however you seem to have some conflicting data eg. Koto bade, but dated within the shinto period. The pics seem to support a shinto blade, however a better pic of the hamon would be nice. The kozuka seems to be of different style from the handachi fittings. John

[Brian]

Jock,

I assume the info you gathered was a compilation of replies from a few different people, hence the sometimes conflicting info?

I think most of it looks to be fairly correct or close, based on the info given. Values are always a tricky subject, and I would guess at a little lower than the estimates given..perhaps around $4000-$6000 or so..but that would vary considerably on close inspection of the blade, and is just a guideline/guess based on online values on various sites.

Looks like a nice sword though, and probably worthy of professional appraisal and perhaps polish.

I also go with Kanbun shinto around 1660 or so judging by the shape, but have not made up my mind about the long length vs the possibility it is shortened. That extra mekugi ana is curious, as if it was shortened it would be very long for this era.

Of course a lot depends on close inspection of the blade for flaws and activity. There is only so much you can tell online

 

Regards,

Brian

[Stephen]

with Boss....it needs to be seen by the NBTHK or a one of the NTHK groups.....very nice find and worth the twenty year wait.

 

John which pix has a Kozuka

[rkg]

Hi,

 

First of all, great find!

 

Second, its edo period, not endo period :-)

 

third, I've always thought a handachi style koshirae referred to a

piece that was worn "katana style" with the koshirae; saya having a kuirkata for this - this has a single ashikanamono mount, kinda like a later koshirae that was meant to be worn with western garb or something - could some expert out there clear up my confusion on this?

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[YamaArashi]

please be more careful with the blade.... the photo of the blade on that dirty table give me the shakings.... :? :x

 

koshirae is very good and well preserved in the years, blade needs some refreshening by a good polisher.

 

I think that the blade passed trough a important suriage so it's more probabile that it's a Koto sword. The small sori make me doubt

 

Surely koshirae is more modern and made when the blade was shortened.

[Jock]

Maybe I'm wrong - maybe you can't see it - I enlargened the pics a lot more than the 2 following ones - the whole blade looks like "normal" steel, but the enlarged hamon looks like a sheet of crystals in all kinds of colours.... is this normal?? Ask me and I can forward you detailed pics...3MB each.. Any thoughts on this one? Jock

[Brian]

Jock,

 

That's what nie and nioi are all about..and what attracts many to Nihonto :D

I really wish Darcy would write up a paragraph again about that "nie of 1000000? colors" again..I lost the last write up.

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: This is also sometimes caused by the slight layer of oil that may be present, combined with the light reflection off the nie and nioi.

[John A Stuart]

You're right Stephen, pic of different koshirae mixed in. Apologies. John

[Darcy]

Yeah the nie of many colors is a really fascinating thing. You see this on really well made pieces in nie deki, but not always. Helps to have the right lighting too and I'm not entirely sure why it appears but it has appeared from time to time in my photographs.

 

When viewing, I've found it most likely to be seen when viewing with the light coming over the shoulder with the sword being held up in front of your face. So the light is coming in straight at the blade, and reflecting straight off it into your eyes, just like say you were looking for your reflection in a mirror. So as close to perpendicular as you can get.

 

The colors seen are kind of muted and pastel, you should clearly see a pastel green, and pastel red, and then the yellow color which would normally come with an incandescent light anyway. It's kind of like a kaleidescope if the sword is right. I've seen it on a nice shinshinto copy of a Soshu blade (this had a gimei signature on it) and on fine old koto works. The sword needs fine sprays of thick nie in the hamon.

 

My theory is that the combination of microscopic scratches from the polisher's finish combined with the spacing of the martensite crystals causes a bit of diffraction in the reflections and so you get a bit of a color spray effect... I could be really far off though, physics memory is getting very dim so this is just a guess that I'm not equipped to defend or pursue :-).

[jesup]

Hi; I supplied some (most) of the comments that Jock posted (merged with other people's). I didn't comment on Koshirae; I'm not that well-versed on that.

 

(Excuse my definition of terms, that's for Josh when he reads this so he's not having to google Japanese vocabulary...

 

My thought was Kanbun Shinto, circa 1660, either made for test-cutting, made to appear suriage, or made unusually-long and then suriage (unlikely but possible). However, looking at higher-resolution images from Jock, there appears to be a line across the tang about the right distance from the lower hole to be an indicator of where an original ha-machi/mune-machi was, so maybe it is suriage. There is a slight difference in character of the filemarks/rust across that line, but that might be mis-reading the slightly fuzzy image. (Jock, you need brighter lights so the camera will use shorter exposures - and/or a tripod).

 

The suggestion of the (late?) koto school that made straight swords is interesting; I don't know anything about them. Need to hit the books.

 

Definitely nie-deki (individual spots/crystals of temper (martensite)) with some ji-nie (scattered nie above the main hamon line); the colors you see are not nie, they're (old) oil. The hamon says to me shinto or soshu-influenced sue-koto (late koto, 1500-1600ish). Long kaeri (turnback of the hamon at the point). The kissaki (tip) does not appear to be shortened, it was always short.

 

Straight blade (longish) and short tip means very unlikely to be nambokucho (late 1300's); most koto tachi with short points have a lot more curvature. If it was very greatly shortened (in two stages perhaps), maybe a tachi with a lot of curvature near the tang *might* end up that straight - but I doubt it. As mentioned, there may be some sue-koto schools who used a low amount of sori (curvature), otherwise it points at an unusually long shinto blade, probably kanbun. Echizen (a province) kanbun shinto perhaps, maybe shimosaka school? (Echizen/shimosaka are related to the aforementioned Yasutsugu school, which comes from echizen and is closely related to shimosaka, or even the same at one point).

[Jock]

Hi Folks, thank you all for your thoughts and contributions - very much appreciated! Jock

[Jock]

new perspective

[Jock]

selling this one! jock