Alex A Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 Hi Denis, dont get too overly concerned about all this, using uchiko once or twice a year obviously will not damage your sword. Dont leave too much oil on your blade, only a thin coating, and it will be fine. In a modern central heated home in the uk you probably dont need to use oil, its dry enough. I oil my blades simply as a precaution because im away from home most of the day. Alex.
sanjuro Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 David. You are right when you say that it comes down to a matter of choice. However, the golden rule in this collecting and preserving of nihonto that we all share, is 'DO NO HARM'. Your choice therefore should always defer to the method that achieves the objective of preserving the blade against oxidation with oil, but most of all is the least invasive on the polish. Uchiko does absorb oil but it is abrasive, hence most of us dont use it because there is no need to use it.
Soshin Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 Hi Everyone, I normally don't post but wanted to state I use uichio and choji oil. I have a friend that uses isopropyl alcohol. I am a bit concerned because isopropyl alcohol I see for sale at the drug store ranges between 50% to 95% solution mix with water. I work in a lab and have access to 100% isopropyl alcohol but I can't use it and I don't think my friend has any. This is just my two cents on the topic and I agree with Mr. S. Yours truly, David Stiles
Alex A Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 I see your point David, i would only use 100% isopropyl alcohol. Luckily i have access to it at work Alex.
Bruno Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 I do not see the problem of not being able to use 100% isopropyl alcohol, 60% or 90% sopropyl alcohols are just diluted with water. If you dry well the blade after then what is the matter
Alex A Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 Hi Bruno, if your going to use alcohol on your blade you would be better using 100%. You need it to evaporate fast and completely. Your blade is porous. Wiping it off may not do the job completely. Alex
sanjuro Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 Bruno. 60% or 90% sopropyl alcohols are just diluted with water. Isnt the reason we oil our blades to exclude water? Why introduce water into the tiny interstices of the blade then add oil over the surface to trap it where it will do the most harm? Reoiling a blade is done with more frequentcy immediately after a polish. Even the most professionally polished blade has small microscopic interstices in the hada.This initial increased frequency of oiling is to replace the water used in the polishing process which has settled in those interstices, with oil. Using alcohol that has been diluted with water is surely not sensible. Anything less than 100% alcohol is taking a risk
Bruno Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 Thanks for the comments. I know a blade is porous but I've never read or heard someone tells 60%-90% alcohols had ever damaged his sword. What are the visible damages we are supposed to see if using these not pure isopropyls (long/short terms)? Are they internal or external to the blade? Also togishi put a lot of water on their blades so those ones might bear short water cleaning treatments as long as you dry them after. Not asserting anything just querying the board.
David Flynn Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 100% Isopropyl, is easily obtainable. Plenty of sites on ebay alone. 1
sanjuro Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 Bruno. I'm no authority on this subject, Chris Bowen is one who springs to mind as having the most access to togishi and therefore the most access to some authority on the effects you are asking about. I know of no published work that examines the effects of diluted alcohol on swords, and probably there are none since it is a fairly recent practice. For my own part I am approaching this from a 'best practice/potentially least harmful practice' point of view. Our greatest enemy is rust. Water in any form promotes rust. Ergo, anything with water in it, no matter in what proportion, constitutes a risk. A question that springs to my mind in this context, is what are the potential differences in terms of risk, between shinto and shinshinto blades which tend generally toward tight hada, against koto blades whose hada are generally looser and more pronounced. Is one at greater peril than the other in terms of susceptibility to rust? This is perhaps a moot point, but the discussion here has brought it to mind. Where is Chris when you need him??????? :D
Marius Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 Where is Chris when you need him??????? He is cleaning his sword with isopropyl alcohol (99.9%), but before that he applies some uchiko Honestly, I think that it all boils down to the level of care. I cannot believe that good uchiko will scratch the sword immediately, nor do I believe that 0.01% of water, wiped off with dry paper can do any harm to the sword, especially if the sword is oiled afterwards. Let me quote the late Jim Kurrasch, who has once said something I still remember. several years after his website has ceased to exist: "to clean the oil off I tend to use either white tissue paper or white toilet paper. If it does not leave splinters in my butt I doubt that it will do much damage to a steel sword"
Ed Harbulak Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 I use 99% isopropyl alcohol to remove the oil from my blades and there's no rust to date. I find 99% alcohol in the local drug stores although I avoid the more dilute varieties also found there. Being a retired chemist and concerned about my own blades, I have tested 99% isopropyl alcohol for the presense of water and did not get a positive test for water in 99% rubbing alcohol. If one is really worried about using even 99% (or 100%) alcohol to remove the old oil from a sword, then use a water displacing oil like WD40 when re-oiling the blade. Ed Harbulak
cabowen Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 I would use pure alcohol or acetone but I doubt the 50% versions are going to leave water behind-it probably evaporates with the alcohol. Try taking a tiny amount and pour it into a shallow plate. Come back in 15 minutes and see if there is anything left.....If there is, you have your answer.... Uchiko is, again, an abrasive. There is no two ways about it. It will cause hike kizu. Toilet paper and kleenex, etc., are usually made with recycled papers and can scratch a blade. I speak from personal experience. Also, when I was visiting Kotani Yasunori, the Yasukuni smith, he scolded me for using tissue paper to wipe the oil off a blade, telling me it could scratch. I didn't believe him but later learned it was true. LIke I said, I am not a rich man and polishing costs real money to me. I am not about to take any chances with scratches on a blade in good polish. With alcohol and microfiber, I know I have no worries.
Marius Posted January 21, 2013 Report Posted January 21, 2013 LIke I said, I am not a rich man and polishing costs real money to me. I am not about to take any chances with scratches on a blade in good polish. With alcohol and microfiber, I know I have no worries. I guess this is the voice of reason.
drdata Posted January 22, 2013 Report Posted January 22, 2013 While I could not find 100% iso (95% being the highest), the local hardware store does have denatured Ethyl alcohol. I guess the concern here is what is used to denature it, and whether it may damage a blade? edit: wiki is your friend: Seems safe in most cases as the sword cannot go blind: "Denatured alcohol is used as a solvent and as fuel for spirit burners and camping stoves. Because of the diversity of industrial uses for denatured alcohol, hundreds of additives and denaturing methods have been used. The main additive has traditionally been 10% methanol, giving rise to the term "methylated spirit." Other typical additives include isopropyl alcohol, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, and denatonium.[1]" Regards
Dr Fox Posted January 23, 2013 Report Posted January 23, 2013 I have had a conversation with a toolmaker I know, he uses and sharpens edged tools. Luckily he also has a working knowledge of Japanese sword steel. The subject got around to sharpening stones, two in particular, oil and water stones. As explained to me, an oilstone can be used with both oil and water. A water stone is intended for use with water only, oil reduces the effectiveness of a wetstone, it smooth’s the stone and it does not allow the slurry created to clear. The oil chosen for the oilstone is also tailored for that task, so where’s this all going? My oil is a mineral and as such is a protective, not a lubricant; the uchico powder arrives on the blade as a fine powder. Could it not be, that the oil will coat the powder, and reduce its ability to score the hardened steel of the sword jacket? Is this known? And is this why this method is acceptable? Denis
sanjuro Posted January 23, 2013 Report Posted January 23, 2013 Denis. One of the most abrasive mixtures I know of is real uchiko mixed into a paste with choji oil. I used it some years ago a couple of times to clean light rust off Russian Shashka and kindjal blades. I would not even dream of bringing that paste into the same room as a nihonto. It leaves steel dull. (nice and free of rust but dull). Just stay away from uchiko, its not necessary, and unless you have the touch of a butterfly, you will ultimately do damage.
ROKUJURO Posted January 23, 2013 Report Posted January 23, 2013 .....The subject got around to sharpening stones, two in particular, oil and water stones. As explained to me, an oilstone can be used with both oil and water. A water stone is intended for use with water only, oil reduces the effectiveness of a wetstone, it smooth’s the stone and it does not allow the slurry created to clear..... This is a different subject but as we are talking about abrasive effects of UCHIKO, it may be tolerated by the BIG BOSS. Natural oil stones are called so because they are to be used with a kind of oil. These stones are not porous and do not soak up liquids. Examples of oil stones are the famous Arkansas and Ouashita stones of the U.S. BUT these should not be used with a lubricant oil, instead one should use what is called different in different countries: Petroleum, petrol, kerosene, lamp oil a.s.o. These are all low viscosity hydrocarbon fractions of crude oil. Some have a bad smell, others are artificially perfumed (there is a variety of non-perfumed lamp oils on the market). These dense sharpening stones, when used with lubricant mineral oil, loose their abrasive capacity and have to be cleaned. Some can be cooked in water to reanimate them, others can be soaked in chemical solvents (not good for your little lungs). So called 'water stones' can take up more or less water, and they are mostly to be used with this liquid - there are a few exceptions among artificial grinding stones. Generally said: None of them works satisfyingly with oil of the lubricating type. As I got the pencil in my hand: UCHIKO is chemically a calcium carbonate. This can be obtained by grinding up limestone, marble, mussel shells, chalk (blackboard chalk is plaster, not lime) and others. These are hard materials, even cristals in some cases. Not only in former times but still today, calcium carbonate was used als polishing material by goldsmiths (Vienna Chalk, calcium-magnesia carbonate). But there is also a very soft calcium carbonate produced by chemical precipitation. Almost all of these materials can - and do - scratch fine surfaces, depending on the size of their grains. Polishing means that the unarmed human eye cannot see the scratches because they are too fine. A magnifying glass or a microscope will always show scratches! So, the basic material UCHIKO is made of will decide if you scratch your sword blade, depending also on the sieving process to eliminate coarse grains. In the long range even the best UCHIKO may affect the steel, especially when rubbed with pressure, thus creating a shiny (polished) surface where you rather want to have a matt one. Concerning the so-called CHOJI oil for sword care, it should be known that cheap qualities only contain an homeopathic amount of genuine or natural CHOJI oil. The basic material is paraffin oil, and CHOJI is added as a fragrant only. On the other hand, paraffin oil is not so bad a choice, because it does not deteriorate or polymerize. But it is known that the properties of paraffin oil to stick to a metallic surface to build up a protective film are weak. So the protection is only realized in the tiny openings of a blade surface which we call HADA. Fine UCHIKO as well as chemical diluents can remove oil residue from these very fine openings. So what has been said on sword care is certainly true: you have to know the conditions your blades are stored in, and clean and protect accordingly with the softest and best materials available. Denaturated spirit, depending on the country of origin, can contain harmful substances that are known to cause cancer (Germany). So it may be a good idea to clean your blades in the garden.
drbvac Posted January 23, 2013 Report Posted January 23, 2013 Chris: You mentioned a product called "SHEATH". What is it and are there any similar products in NA? Is it the gun oil >>?
Dr Fox Posted January 23, 2013 Report Posted January 23, 2013 Jean My reference to stones, was based on my understanding that uchico was ground wet stone (wrong?) This I tied in with your comment "None of them works satisfyingly with oil of the lubricating type." And did this then, effect the powder on oil, on the blade. In an earlier post on this thread, I mentioned pushing the powder in front of the paper, not trapping it under, against the blade. I am now almost resolved to oil my blades, and leave them in that condition, no rust, no scratching, got to be the best outcome. Regards for your patience Denis.
cabowen Posted January 23, 2013 Report Posted January 23, 2013 Chris: You mentioned a product called "SHEATH". What is it and are there any similar products in NA? Is it the gun oil >>? Yes, it is a firearm oil, I think made by Birchwood-Casey....
Alex A Posted January 23, 2013 Report Posted January 23, 2013 I use express gun oil, available on ebay. Alex.
ROKUJURO Posted January 23, 2013 Report Posted January 23, 2013 .....My reference to stones was based on my understanding that uchiko was ground whetstone (wrong?) This I tied in with your comment "None of them works satisfyingly with oil of the lubricating type." And did this then, effect the powder on oil, on the blade?In an earlier post on this thread, I mentioned pushing the powder in front of the paper, not trapping it under, against the blade. I am now almost resolved to oil my blades, and leave them in that condition, no rust, no scratching, got to be the best outcome...... When I mentioned the effect of oil on whetstones, I referred to solid stones, not powder. The UCHIKO powder, mixed with oil, is said to have a grinding effect. As far as I know there are different qualities of UCHIKO. It seems that some polishers use leftover UCHIGOMORI stone and grind it to fine powder for use as UCHIKO. In other sources it is said that fine limestone or other calcium carbonate sources are used. All these powders may be abrasive if used with pressure or over a long period of time. I try to imagine how you are pushing your UCHIKO very carefully in front of your paper, but in a 100 years from now, when you look at your blades, you may be disappointed by the result! :D The traditional system of sword care was based on regular cleaning and oiling, which made sense in the maritime climate of Japan. If you only oil your blade, it will polymerize (in case it is a natural oil) and cannot be removed frome the tiny holes which form the HADA. Depending on your climate, it may be a good idea to use a water-free chemical solvent to remove old oil, together with a soft tissue like medical cellulose swabs, before you oil again.
Alex A Posted January 23, 2013 Report Posted January 23, 2013 Ive been sucked in by some of the conversation on here, usually just use an old white t-shirt, but today i ordered some microfibre cloths :D Alex.
Ken-Hawaii Posted January 24, 2013 Report Posted January 24, 2013 Jean, I think you may have a misunderstanding about uchiko. There are some very cheap uchiko offerings that do contain talc, marble, etc., but real uchiko is the finely-ground uchigumori polishing stone. To grind/polish steel, the material must be harder than the steel, but no form of calcium carbonate is that hard (http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/mohs_hardness_abrasive_grit.html). Also, choji oil is simply mineral oil with 1-2% clove fragrance (http://oil.solution-network.com/mineral-oil-msds/?pg=2 lower frame). Ken
Dr Fox Posted January 24, 2013 Report Posted January 24, 2013 Thank you Jean Respect for what you are saying,but we are gliding past each other on a few points. I try to imagine how you are pushing your UCHIKO very carefully in front of your paper,After I have lightly powdered the oiled blade, I place the prepared paper just below the habaki area. This area is is not powdered, with my fingers in firm contact with the blade, I sweep or pushthe powder off the blade, this is a forward movement the complete length of the blade. may be abrasive if used with pressure I don't feel the uchico in pressure, at any point during the method I use.The UCHIKO powder, mixed with oil, is said to have a grinding effect. Sanjuro stated he cleaned rust off blades with such a mixture, but I feel assured, it was not in the quantity of powder I use, nor without a great deal of pressure in a scrubbing motion. So I can't accept this applies.I find it difficult to come to terms with the thought that, a sword dealer shows me how to clean and care for my blades, respected sword smiths demonstrate exactly the same, yet neither indicate that what I am doing, is injurious to my swords polish! Ken I take comfort in your words, as it confirmed two points, I was clumsily trying to make, thanks also to you. Denis
cabowen Posted January 24, 2013 Report Posted January 24, 2013 That is fine in theory but in practice you will find at some point that using uchiko will leave hike kizu.
Kai-Gunto Posted January 24, 2013 Report Posted January 24, 2013 Hi Mark - hope you are well.It is my understanding that a newly polished swords might tend to "sweat" water for some months after the sword is polished, due to water being "absorbed" during the polishing process. Of course, if this is left or ignored, it will rust and deteriate drastically from the finish of the polish. I was advised, therefore, that applications of uchiko should be applied regularly (say once a month) for at least the first six months following a full polish. It is also interesting in this discussion, that there is something of a concensus, that the best uchiko comes from togishi, including dear old Bob Benson, so I doubt they would warn against using it! Finally, it has been said here that newbies do not understand uchiko and are are unable to use it. As with all things, these beginners should be taught the correct way of all things related to the Japanese sword rather than find easier ways to accomodate them. This includes sword preservation, cleaning, handling and etiquette, all things that make the Japanese sword a distinctive Japanese cultural asset. Call me old fashioned if you will, but without these things, I do not think that it is possible to come near to understanding Japanese swords. I apologise for this diatribe and I will now shut-up! Clive Sinclaire
ROKUJURO Posted January 24, 2013 Report Posted January 24, 2013 Ken, I see no contradiction to what I wrote. May I add that in medieval times CHOJI oil for sword care was probably not basically paraffin oil, but some natural mixture. Concerning metal polishing with calcium carbonate see http://www.abrasivesformetal.co.uk/Vienna-Chalk.aspx
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