A question about oiling the blade

[Drago]

Hi,

 

well, I'm still a noob, so I usually follow a sword care guide to the letter (NBTHK or Nakahara-san's from "Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords") . But there is one thing I don't really get.

 

So I clean the blade and then apply the oil. But then they ask me to wipe the blade down again to remove excess oil with a new piece of cloth. But doesn't that mean effectively removing the oil? Why oil it in the first place? Or how do I wipe it down without removing everything?

(I know there is a discussion "to oil or not to", but since this place can get humid sometimes I think oiling would be better.)

 

[cfm15]

Even after wiping the blade there will still be a protective coating,you don't want to have any excess oil hanging out in the saya.

Chris

[Marius]

So I clean the blade

 

Tobias,

 

how do you clean it? I hope you are NOT using uchiko?

[Drago]

@Chris:

I see. Thanks.

 

@Mariusz:

Your question made me wonder so I checked about "to uchiko or not". So far I have always used it, but not that much I think. Then again, I only cleaned my blade three times since I got it (once every half year). Guess I'll use it less.

[Marius]

Leave uchiko alone. There is a lot of information on this forum about the negative aspects of using it. Search for uchiko and isopropyl alcohol. Use the latter.

[kbt]

I've been wanting to ask this same question for a long time but didn't want to get flamed haha . So there should be no

little droplets of oil left once you have wiped it for the last time correct ?

Thanks Kim

[nagamaki - Franco]

So there should be no

little droplets of oil left once you have wiped it for the last time correct ?

 

Correct. There only needs to be a very thin film of oil to keep oxygen and moisture away. Where there are visible pits, if any, I would treat those first and separately by making certain oil gets into them, and then oil the rest of the surface followed by wiping down.

[Jean]

The first question to ask is: Where do you live and is there any need to oil the blade?

[NihontoEurope]

Next question:

 

How and where do you store the blade?

 

/Martin

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

I know we have had this discussion before, but I am somewhat surprised to see the strong anti uchiko statements here. I have used uchiko for over 40 years and never had a problem with it. It is sometimes necessary on newly polished blades for example, when the hadori may be hiding some of the hataraki in the hamon and providing it is

a) Good quality uchiko

b) Applied correctly

then I see no problems in using it. I only use good uchiko that comes from Japanese polishers and certainly use it if the blade is oiled, in order to remove the oil. Actually, as the UK climate tends not to be very humid, the need for oil is questionable. I keep my blades dry as they are in a constant temperature controlled environment and the occasional wipe with one of the new cleaning cloths suffices. However, these cloths are no good if there is any oil on the blade. I do know of collectors who enjoy the "ritual" of oiling a blade and the smell of choji-abura, but I am not one of them.

I wonder why uchiko, which has been used for sword cleaning for many decades, is now seen here in such a negative way or have I misunderstood the discussion? I am eager to be enlightened on this matter.

Clive Sinclaire

[Marius]

a) Good quality uchiko

b) Applied correctly

 

Clive,

 

that is the key, and I am afraid most new adepts of nihonto don't get either of these points right. Hence this seemingly predominant anti-uchiko stance here.

 

Bob Benson (whose uchiko I am using, if ever so rarely) has published a pamphlet on uchiko, in which the sad consequences of an incorrectly applied uchiko are shown. While these are obvious to a senior scholar like you, they are not known to newbies.

[Mark]

Clive

 

I had thought as you mention about uchiko enhancing a newly polished blade, but after talking with a couple of Japanese polishers their thought was that if the blade was properly polished then it is is its best condition when it leaves their hands and if uchiko is used to change that it is only diminishing the condition. I use uchiko on blades on old polish to help improve the condition if it has been scuffed or poorly handled.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Hi Mark - hope you are well.

It is my understanding that a newly polished swords might tend to "sweat" water for some months after the sword is polished, due to water being "absorbed" during the polishing process. Of course, if this is left or ignored, it will rust and deteriate drastically from the finish of the polish. I was advised, therefore, that applications of uchiko should be applied regularly (say once a month) for at least the first six months following a full polish.

It is also interesting in this discussion, that there is something of a concensus, that the best uchiko comes from togishi, including dear old Bob Benson, so I doubt they would warn against using it!

Finally, it has been said here that newbies do not understand uchiko and are are unable to use it. As with all things, these beginners should be taught the correct way of all things related to the Japanese sword rather than find easier ways to accomodate them. This includes sword preservation, cleaning, handling and etiquette, all things that make the Japanese sword a distinctive Japanese cultural asset. Call me old fashioned if you will, but without these things, I do not think that it is possible to come near to understanding Japanese swords.

I apologise for this diatribe and I will now shut-up!

Clive Sinclaire

[Marius]

Clive,

 

if someone with such great experience as yours issues an admonition, people had better listen.

 

Could you please tell us what you think of using clean and very pure isopropyl alcohol instead of uchiko. The purpose of uchiko is to remove (dried) oil from the blade. The same task can be accomplished with isopropyl alcohol, but there might be a downside. Would you advise against using isopropyl alcohol? If so, why?

 

This has been discussed here before, but there was no conclusion.

[cabowen]

I have talked to many togishi as well as other experts in the field. Here is what many do in private and what I do:

 

I do not use uchiko. It is an abrasive. Even the most carefully made uchiko is an abrasive. It scratches the blade.

 

I use alcohol or acetone to remove dried oil. It evaporates and leaves no residue. It doesn't scratch the blade.

 

I use a microfiber cloth to wipe the alcohol/acetone/dried oil. The fibers create a suction that lifts residue off the blade without scratching.

 

I use a water displacing oil like Sheath. Newly polished blades are wiped wiped with the microfiber cloth once a week for a period of 3 months or so and reoiled.

 

I use a cotton/flannel patch about 2 inches square to apply the oil.

 

 

Of course uchiko is the traditional material to clean the blade. It probably works well for removing blood and fat. I can't help but think that the less touching and abraiding done to a blade, the longer the polish will last. Sometimes technological improvements just make sense.

[sanjuro]

My two cents worth.......

For hundreds of years the Japanese have used uchiko and choji oil. Such things as isopropelene alcohol and microfibre cloths were not known of, yet many thousands of nihonto have survived the centuries to come into our possession in good order and properly cared for using time honoured practices. Now I dont know if isopropelene alcohol or microfibre cloths are better or worse than the traditional materials and quite frankly I dont care. What has worked for centuries when used correctly is good enough for my swords, (none of which are rusty, out of polish or suffering from the care that they receive at my hand). What I use I use sparingly and seldom. My most precious blades never see uchiko because they are not used as swords any more. As Chris has said, uchiko removes blood and fat but has an abrasive effect. A clean with a soft cloth and replacement of the oil is all that is required. A newly polished blade is a different matter. I would take a togishi's advice on how the blade should be maintained in the early months following the polish.

Call me old fashioned...... Call me a traditionlist. I prefer to use what is proven rather than what is speculatively called 'modern' practice that has not yet stood the test of time.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Mariuszk

Please do not think that I am issuing any admonition, I am merely expressing my own individual point of view. If others such as Chris Bowen, whose opinion is to be respected, think differently, then of course, I accept that there are other ways of doing things, though they are not for me.

I have never used any alcholic substance for cleaning swords, reserving it exclusively as a libation!

Regards

Clive S

[cabowen]

I appreciate others use and support for the traditional methods but respectfully point out that the use and appreciation of swords, as well as the art of polishing, are radically different than what they were historically. Uchiko dates to the period when swords were weapons first and the quality of polish was secondary to the cutting ability of the blade. When I spend $$$$ on a polish, the last thing I want to do is abrade the blade, even in the slightest. Granted, microfiber and rubbing alcohol don't have the romance or exoticism of the uchiko ritual, which I do miss greatly, but for long term preservation of the polish, they have served me well.

 

As for long term consequences, I have seen many polished blades that have been cleaned with uchiko for years and I have seen blades cleaned with microfiber for 15+ years. That, and the opinions of others I trust, is why I advocate microfiber. If someone can point out clearly a detrimental aspect of microfiber/rubbing alcohol, I am always willing to do what is best and would gladly change my ways. After all, what we are all striving for is preservation, in the end.

[sanjuro]

On the subject of microfibre, It is possible (More than possible) that I resist using it purely on traditional grounds. I have however departed from tradition in as much as I no longer use washi paper. Firstly, its expensive (at least where I live) also it is a wood fibre and could have silica embedded in it. Rather I use silk cloth to clean the old oil away. Silk absorbs oil like crazy, and I get it cheap as chips, so I just throw the piece away when I've used it. I've never really seen the advantage of using alcohol, but if someone can convince me it is absolutely necessary, then I'm prepared to listen. Traditionalist I may be, but I'm not an idiot.

I do still enjoy the ritual of cleaning my blades though. I only do it twice a year. No uchiko any more, just a wipe down and reoil. Even modified as it is, the ritual or what remains of it, still gives me much pleasure.

[Marius]

Keith,

 

you might want to read Chris's first post here. I guess the points Chris has listed should convince you. Uchiko is an abrasive and scratches the blade. Clean alcohol removes oil. Microfibre removes liquids.

[sanjuro]

Hi Mariusz.

 

My apologies.... Perhaps I was not clear. I dont use uchiko any more. I merely remove old oil with silk cloth and re oil the blade. All my blades are kept in shirasaya, so they are never completely dry of oil. Since no other liquids can contaminate the blades then the use of alcohol seems redundant.

[Marius]

Keith,

 

sorry, I should have read your post more carefully :-) I never even oil my blades, as it is pretty dry here, but I wipe them with microfiber from time to time. Some of my swords are in my modest collection for years now and I have never had even a speckle of rust. But maybe I should go back to oiling blades, and removing old oil periodically. After all, it can do them only good, as long as I don't use uchiko.

[Alex A]

Hi, may i add that i dont actually use choji oil, i read somewhere that gun oil is better, think it was aoi arts care guide. The one i use has a rust inhibitor, never had any problems. I live in the uk, i think its fine to leave your swords without oil as long as the room where you store them stays at a reasonably constant temperature. I work shifts, the house goes from cold to hot and so on, this change in temperature can lead to condensation on the steel so better safe than sorry.

 

Alex.

[nagamaki - Franco]

While it is possible to use uchiko without scratching, unless one possesses a golden touch, inevitably it will result in fine, or worse, scratches somewhere. Almost any newly polished sword in the hands of a collector which has seen uchiko under a quartz light will demonstrate this. And where non scratching cleaning cloths are concerned, 'Microdear' is the nuts. Use non perfume or other harmful chem detergent like an Arm and Hammer to wash to avoid harmful residues. Also, given the choice stay away from benzene type cleaners for your own health if nothing else.

[cabowen]

The alcohol or acetone is a carrier that helps to cut/dissolve and lift the oil. Simply wiping an oiled blade will leave a thin oil residue. To completely remove the old oil, you need more than a wipe.

[runagmc]

To me, it seems that uchiko has an ability to make hada and steel particles stand out (almost with a 3-deminsional effect) leaving the blade surface looking crisp and clear, better than microfibre - at least in my experience. So, to study a sword with all it's characteristic as clear as possible, I think uchiko is still the best. Obviously, it can cause damage, as well as soften the contrast obtained by nugui, so I can understand why people stay away from it. Personally, I don't oil my swords anymore, so they just get wiped with a soft cloth once in a while - but they were all cleaned by me with uchiko at some point.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I frankly think that Jean had the most appropriate question:

Where do you live and is there any need to oil the blade?

 

I happen to live in a rather humid climate here in Hawaii, a literal stone's-throw away from the Pacific Ocean, so oiling my blades every quarter is less an option than a necessity, although I keep my blades in shirasaya inside a traditional katanadansu. Speaking as a Petroleum Engineer, unless you choose to use a denatured alcohol (usually isopropanol) or a ketone (acetone), you're simply not going to remove all of the old oil previously applied to your blade. And there is really no reason to remove it all; what you're trying to do is to keep the "old" oil from polymerizing (getting gummy) due to heat, or maybe some residue inside the saya. The thin new coat of oil is intended to provide a passivation (oxygen-resistant) layer to preclude rust. Done correctly, there won't be a build-up of oily residue in the saya.

 

There may also be times when uchiko is warranted, but I'm not addressing that; however, using uchiko just to remove previous applications of oil is really tremendous overkill, & that alone won't work, anyway.

 

Ken

[kaigunair]

Looks like I may be jumping on the isopropyl bandwagon. I was wondering if there was an objection to using the blue shop towels? My collection is mainly Gendaito in original polish but one day soon I hope to have a nicer one go through a Togishi. I had been using the kit uchiko ball on blades that were out of polish or when I first get them, and then switch to a bob benson one for the periodic cleanings....

 

I do like the smell of the clove oil so I don't think I'm ready to give that up just yet. I know a friend who likes to use auto wax on his gendaito collection....! Not for me!

[Alex A]

Hi, i wouldnt use coloured cloths to wipe the blade, apparently it can stain the blade, its likely with strong colours that this is possible, so better to use white only. Ive never used isopropyl alcohol to clean old oil off, usually powder once a year, i think it sounds a good idea, less abrasive, that must be a good thing. Im sure if the samurai of old had better methods at that time, they would have used them.

 

Alex.

[Dr Fox]

For me a comparative beginner, this has turned into a most interesting thread. But it has also left me with one foot on the boat, and the other on the dock, so to speak. When I picked up my swords from the Japanese Gallery, great pains were taken to show, and have me clean and oil a blade ( a non value blade was used) Uchico and oil were used, starting behind the powder, the paper was pushed along the blade, pushing the uchico ahead of the paper, at no time was the powder under the paper.

For me this was the way to go, I don’t want to damage in any way my swords, so I am taking notice of all being said here. A question I had was “How absorbent is Uchico, that it is able to soak up oil?”

Then last night to add to my confusion, I viewed the excellent video in the Takeshi series on Yoshindo Yoshihara, no one can refute this gentleman’s sword knowledge. He demonstrated the cleaning of a blade and yes, he used uchico powder, and unless the translation was wrong, it stated that the powder absorbed the oil!

So I now believe, this must come down to a personal choice, of which method to use.

Regards

Denis.