Question about Daisho

[Hans Kondor]

Hello guys,

 

I would like to ask your opinion about the following daisho, can be an original or a chinese fake.

[Hans Kondor]

Pictures from the blades.

[Hans Kondor]

Rest:

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Hans,

I think late Edo or Meiji koshirae, mediocre quality. The blades are real Nihonto: the wakizashi is likely gimei of Hizen Tadayoshi and hard to tell much about the daito. Considering the koshirae there is no reason to expect anything special from the blades.

But what do I know? Grey

[cabowen]

Looks to me like modern repro koshirae with older blades. The wakizashi is gimei.

[Hans Kondor]

Thank you guys.

Not much information was added to the swords, but yes it was written that it is signed as: Hizen Kuni Ju Tada Yoshi Saku.

 

To tell you the truth I thought that both the blades and koshirae are poor quality reproductions. I don't like the rayskin, saya, korukata, thex all have a cheap chinese look. Also that both blades has a very narrow suguha hamon, is it not weird?

[paulb]

Hans,

Some of the finest swords ever made have narrow suguha hamon so that is not an indicator of cheap or late Chines fakes.

As said by others the fittings look very late the baldes mediocre quality. The Tadayoshi is gimei.

Best Regards

Paul

[leo]

Dear Hans,

as Grey stated, the blades are old, might even be koto, but heavily suriage. Somebody tampered with the wakizshi tang to make it look ubu.

The tsuba and fuchikashira can be Meiji(shiriimono ware for export) or new casts, the rest of the koshirae including the polish of the blades is recently made, probably not in Japan.

 

Best,

[Hans Kondor]

  paulb said:

Hans,

Some of the finest swords ever made have narrow suguha hamon so that is not an indicator of cheap or late Chines fakes.

As said by others the fittings look very late the baldes mediocre quality. The Tadayoshi is gimei.

Best Regards

Paul

 

Hello Paul,

 

I know about that and thats why I didn't like it them, because they are surely not the finest blades we have ever seen.

 

A sidequestion about this narrow suguha hamon. Is it possible that some blades, like these had a much wider hamon, but because of the several suriage and polish it has been got narrow?

[paulb]

Hi hans

It is certainly possible that as a result of a polisher removing chips and re-shaping the ha that the hamon becomes narrower. In some cases such reshaping can remove the hamon altogether in sections of the blade.

[Hans Kondor]

Thank you Paul for your answer.

 

One more thing I would like to ask is about suriage. As far as I know the blades from Late Kamakura and early Nanbucho period were mostly sruiage to become katana from tachi, so I guess the suriage itself not affect the price of a katana from that period, but how about the swords balance? Does the tang shortening not weaken the swords ability in a fight, it won't act different after shortening? Or it is depend on who made a changes and in an expert hands the blad ecan be as efficient as it were in its original size?

[John A Stuart]

Hi Hans, Of course suriage or osuriage affects the price. Imagine a sword worth x amount being suriage, how much more would it be worth untouched as made? The style of warfare changed necessitating weapons adaptation to new forms of combat. If shortening a tachi to uchigatana created an imbalanced weapon it would have been altered to make it balanced and effective. They had to be effective as one's life depended upon it. John

[sanjuro]

The shortening of a blade if done correctly does not as a rule weaken a blade unless the blade itself had a weakness of some kind inherent within its original form, which is subsequently accentuated by the shortening process. I'm thinking here of forging faults that are moved by virtue of the shortening process to a more stressed part of the newly proportioned blade, thereby providing a weak spot.

It is unlikely that a blade with such a weakness in the first place would be chosen to have suriage performed on it.

 

The weight is of course altered and dependant upon the distribution of weight throughout the original blade, balance may be altered to varying degrees dependent upon the amount of shortening and the subsequent loss of mass and of curvature.

 

Suriage is not just a matter of lopping off part of the nakago and cutting new machi. The proportions of the blade (Principally the nakago), are reshaped to provide the correct rake and balance. A katana for instance is generally more blade heavy than a tachi, despite the usually greater length of the tachi blade. Tachi have longer tsuka and usually longer nakago. Loss of part of the nakago does not neccesarily adversely impact the balance of the blade given its altered form and method of use as a katana. Given that katana of the Shinto period were generally modelled on the cut down tachi blades of the Nambokucho period, the shape and balance seem to have historically proven themselves in use.

[kusunokimasahige]

Tell me where you exactly see suriage. I see a battered bottom of the Wakizashi Nakago but no suriage at all.

 

KM

[sanjuro]

Groan......

 

KM.

 

I call to your attention a shortened, not drastically so, but shortened none the less, nakago on the sho blade. (What you refer to as a battered nakago). I further call to your attention the multiple ana, both filled and not filled on the dai nakago..... Prima facia evidence in each case, of some degree of suriage.

Now, perhaps if you can tell me what your definition of evidence of suriage is, we can discuss the differences in our comparative realities. :D

[kusunokimasahige]

I thought various nakago holes were partly due to a refit of tsuka when remounting.

 

I normally see straight suriage, not shaped like ubu.

 

You can groan all you like.

 

KM

[sanjuro]

KM.

 

In the case of the dai nakago, the open holes are possibly the result of refitting to different koshirae but the last of the plugged holes is too far down the nakago to be anything but the original mekugi ana. Not all suriage was indicated by a straight cut nakago jiri. Some fairly notable ubu nakago had a straight cut.

This one appears to have a three angled cut, never the less it is suriage. There are as you know, no absolutes when it comes to nihonto.

[Brian]

  sanjuro said:

..There are as you know, no absolutes when it comes to nihonto.

Absolutely!

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

Thank you Keith for that info. Indeed you are right that one of the holes is too far down. But I have also seen mounted swords which had tsuka with double nakago-mekugi-ana and pegs. It seemed they were specifically made that way.

 

KM

[sanjuro]

KM.

 

What you say is quite correct. The type three gunto for instance, had a second mekugi ana almost at the tip of the nakago, and I have also seen a few older nihonto with that feature. (I think the second hole is called a shinobi ana, but I could be wrong on that count). They are however, relatively rare on nihonto generally.

In this instance, the last hole is not far enough down toward the nakago jiri nor is it central enough to suggest that this is a feature of this particular sword. the nature of that offset toward the ha edge of the nakago in the case of the last plugged ana, further suggests some reshaping has been done to the original nakago and is therefore indicative of suriage.

 

Sorry about the groan and rolling eyes in a previous post. Half of Australia is on fire at the moment and I have people I care about in an effected area that I cant contact. My patience is a little worn but i shouldnt have taken it out on you.

[kusunokimasahige]

No problem Keith, we all saw and see it in the news here and it looks dreadful so it is fully understandable you are a little short fused at the moment.

 

KM