jason_mazzy Posted January 5, 2013 Report Posted January 5, 2013 I cannot find my camera so i cannot post a pic right now, but I need your help. I almost ruined a tsuba through love and care.... The tsuba was grimy along with the other grimy fittings that came in on a dilapadated tachi. The tsuba was large and round and looked to be made of shinchu. Well there was a lot of old muck in the detail crevices so i gently washed it with soap and water and it lightened up a bit. I then took to a paper towel to dry it and gave it a vigorous rub and a lot of black came off on the towel, so i figured I should leave it alone. Except the little bamboo and flag/mop looking thing needed some "Q" tip action to get the black chunks off. Well after a minute it looked good and had a li'l shine to it and some "highlighting"... hrmmm looks like copper thats weird..... eeeerrrr hit the breaks. A brass tsuba should not be copper so out came the microscope and the loupe... son of a gun it appears to be a copper tsuba that was carved then gold and/or brass overlayed. Common technique? schools? 1 Quote
Geraint Posted January 5, 2013 Report Posted January 5, 2013 Hi Jason. Tricky one without an image. Depends a bit on exactly what you mean by, "gold and/or brass overlayed". There are discussions elsewhere on the board about gold plating and if that is what your tsuba is then my thoughts would be that this was a late technique and often applied to pretty up a sword. I have two tsuba on swords which sound exactly like what you describe; both are clearly made from copper and then have a thin gold wash over them. I suspect that this would not indicate a school or style as it was used to make articles more saleable at the end of the Meiji period. If however, your tsuba indicates thin gold foil used as a covering, uttori, then that would be quite a different situation. I think we need that picture. Cheers Quote
Marius Posted January 5, 2013 Report Posted January 5, 2013 There are discussions elsewhere on the board about gold plating and if that is what your tsuba is then my thoughts would be that this was a late technique and often applied to pretty up a sword. Geraint, I beg to differ. Gilding of Buddhist statues made from bronze or other alloys has been an ancient technique. Ko-kinko used this technique (which called for the use of mercury) when gilding kodogu. You will find a few examples of this gilding in pre-Edo tsuba published by Mr. Haynes in his Gai-So-shi study. Quote
Geraint Posted January 5, 2013 Report Posted January 5, 2013 Hi Mariusz. I was distinguishing, in my own mind at least, between gilding (fire gilding or mercuric gilding) and gold plating. The two terms are usually taken to mean different things, at least in this country. My point was that we are not going to get much further unless we can see what we are talking about, bearing in mind the number of ways in which the gold could have been applied. Quote
Marius Posted January 5, 2013 Report Posted January 5, 2013 Geraint, I thought that "Methods of gilding include hand application and glueing, chemical gilding, and electroplating, the last also called gold plating" (Wikipedia). I might be wrong, as Wikipedia is not always correct. I guess that what Jason has described is the effect of mercury gilding. Quote
Geraint Posted January 5, 2013 Report Posted January 5, 2013 That's it, Mariusz. "Electroplating, the last also called gold plating." The two tsuba that I referred to are in my opinion gold plated/electroplated. If the tsuba that started this thread is electroplated then it is most likely a late attempt. Pictures of the tsuba may make it obvious that we are not talking about something like this, I mentioned it as a possibility. If I get a moment I will take a picture of the examples I have which may help. Quote
jason_mazzy Posted January 5, 2013 Author Report Posted January 5, 2013 I have found the camera and will update with pictures this evening or tomorrow. I have a very important meeting today at the lodge so i will not be around in a few minutes. Quote
Geraint Posted January 5, 2013 Report Posted January 5, 2013 In the meantime here are the two I was referring to. Apologies for the poor photographs but I think you can see all you need to. The first has a textured copper plate to which have been fixed stamped dragon roundels, the whole thing then gold plated. The second is much more interesting in that it is a copper plate which has been covered with well done nekko gake and then gold plated, lead sekigane and a well done shakudo fukurin complete the treatment. It may be that neither of these has any bearing on the one that Jason is describing, we await pictures. Quote
Marius Posted January 5, 2013 Report Posted January 5, 2013 The gilding looks like very fresh work, no? Quote
christianmalterre Posted January 5, 2013 Report Posted January 5, 2013 if an either way gilding had ben applied ??? normally there would ben no sign of oxidation-Not?...Question.... I never ever have seen such an low quality gilding to say it honestly,of course but,i can be wrong of course. equally the whole quality of those both exemplaires would not really satisfy an however "arted" intend so to get or have to get (one of it)gilded... The entire workmanship is very poor!(to say it) Sorry. Shure it is gold here which got applied and not one of that several "shall be gold" looking alloys? (i do fully agree with Mariusz here) Christian Edit: Shure it´s not an overcleaned Copper-Brass or even Bronze-Brass Core? Quote
Geraint Posted January 5, 2013 Report Posted January 5, 2013 Really didn't intend to hijack the thread, only posted these as examples of late and poor work and as I said may be nothing to do with the tsuba we await. Having said that I am not really sure about much else, the tsuba on the left appears to have had the plating worn through which would account for the oxidation you note Christian. Marius, the poor photography does indeed make them look fresh though neither has been modified recently. Let us hope that the original tsuba that started this is a much better example and that what we shall see is indeed uttori and that it is worth talking about. I only posted these to illustrate a point. Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted January 6, 2013 Report Posted January 6, 2013 There seem to be various words to describe ways of fixing a gold surface to an object. You can have Nunome Zogan, Hon-zogan, Kin-paku and Tokin, for example. If you are wanting a Japanese word, in your case it may be Tokin. Quote
jason_mazzy Posted January 6, 2013 Author Report Posted January 6, 2013 It definately had gold wash and highlighting maybe a brass sheet. Appears to be sandwich construction. Non magnetic. Quote
jason_mazzy Posted January 6, 2013 Author Report Posted January 6, 2013 I don't believe it is laquer. I was cleaning it so it looks wet here. it is not wet looking, but maybe it is. coul explain the gold look. with copper underneath. but the plate color itself seems like shichu Quote
Marius Posted January 6, 2013 Report Posted January 6, 2013 Jason, this tsuba seems average, sorry, I hope I have not shattered hopes for a masterpiece It is therefore safe to assume the an inexpensive method of gilding has been used. BTW, the motif seems a warrior-monk with naginata (ishizuki is visible) and there is a bridge. If the planks were missing, I would say - the battle of Uji 1180. WIth all planks intact I am not so sure that's the motif. Quote
jason_mazzy Posted January 6, 2013 Author Report Posted January 6, 2013 Guess it is sanmai construction then with some gold laquer. the theme I felt it was a rooftop seeing the bamboo on only one side. Quote
Marius Posted January 6, 2013 Report Posted January 6, 2013 sanmai is done in repousse. This one is not. It is solid copper or some alloy. Yes, the roof is obvious, thank you for correcting me. Quote
jason_mazzy Posted January 7, 2013 Author Report Posted January 7, 2013 looks like a foil of some type on top. Quote
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