Submitting blades for Shinsa

[CurtisR]

Greetings all,

 

My question pertains to whether - when a blade is submitted for Shinsa - must it be in "good to excellent" polish, or is it acceptable to submit blades with, for example, rust and scratches etc.? I'm attempting to convince a friend to submit a couple of his Nihonto but have never been through the process and don't wish to offend by submitting (on his behalf) blades that would elicit an immediate rejection.

Those (so far) worth submitting (IMHO) have clear mei, but are in far less than perfect polish. Some have chips on the mimi - not cracks from forging issues to my eye - but nothing too severe.

 

I do not want to give bad advice, and appreciate anyone's input or experiences with this ~~

 

Cheers,

 

Curtis R.

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

The features of the blade (hamon, hada, hataraki, ...) must be visible

should be clear for the judge to form an opinion on the school and smith. Then, the mei should validate the opinion on the work of the blade.

 

May you could post some pic in order to see the state of the polish ?

 

The NBTHK Hozon just guaranty the blade is Japanese and without hagire. Nevermind if there is some chips on the blade as soon as it isn't hagire.

 

May I ask you what is the purpose to send these blades to shinsa ? is it to get an opinion & validate the mei, if so, the forum can help you. :D

[paulb]

Dear Sabastian,

I agree with your comments about the judges needing to see the workmanship to be able to make a judgement. If you cant see the detail you cant make an attribution.

However your comment

The NBTHK Hozon just guaranty the blade is Japanese and without hagire. Nevermind if there is some chips on the blade as soon as it isn't hagire.

while the standard states that for some work (depending on age school and rarity) can be slightly tired or have kizu that is a long way from suggesting that as long as a blade is free of hagire it will receive a Hozon paper. The sword should be in a good state of preservation and it must be possible to clearly identify the traits of a given school or smith. so a Hozon paper is a lot more than just stating the blade is Japanese and free from fatal flaws

Regards

Paul

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I agree with Sebastien, but i would add that concerns principally signed swords, Hozon means that the mei is genuine and the sword is without hagire.

 

shinsa standarts

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shi ... dards.html

[Veli]

As far as I understand, kazu-uchi mono will not get Hozon papers. Thus there are some requirements for quality and workmanship in addition to being free from fatal flaws and either shoshin mei or mumei.

 

Veli

[paulb]

Jacques,

You and I have discussed this in the past and along similar lines. I think your view is too simplistic, and yes I have a copy of the NBTHK Shunsa standards that you linked in your mail. having a valid mei and no Hagire says little about the quality or condition. I was always told that a Hozon aper meant a sword was "worthy of preservation"

Dont want a long winded debate lets just agree to disagree (again)

regards

Paul

[Jean]

Try to send to shinsa a sword with broken tip or crack in the boshi or with hamon running out of the edge with a mei or not and wait to see if it gets Hozon. Furthermore crtiteria have changed. To go to Juyo, a blade now must be TH.

[Brian]

Yes..I am sure Jacques meant fatal flaws in general, not just hagire.

Aside from that..I guess the question is whether hozon just certifies the work is genuine Nihonto, or whether they consider it is worthy of preservation only if it passes a certain quality level?

I had always assumed that any sword that was of tamahagane, without fatal flaws and with a shoshin mei or mumei...would get hozon if it was in a reasonable condition. I hadn't considered that kazu-uchimono or low quality blades like Satsuma rebellion blades would fail. Be good to clarify this.

 

Brian

[Ted Tenold]

The NBTHK has become a bit more demanding of condition for any submission over the past few of years and not unreasonably so. The condition of the nakago and state of polish being the main focus. While some defects can be overlooked, remember that the higher the paper being sought, then so also must be the quality and condition of the polish. Swords have failed to pass Juyo because the polish was inadequate or poorly illustrated the work. I even heard of one sword failing to pass because the utsuri was found to be fake.

 

The best thing to do is consult your dealer or broker prior to submission and ask their opinion. Bob Benson is always willing to recommend a course of action prior to submission, or if the sword is even a good candidate at all. Even if it costs you the postage for a recommendation, it can save you a lot of time, money, and disappointment.

[Ted Tenold]

Yes..I am sure Jacques meant fatal flaws in general, not just hagire.

Brian

 

Some flaws are tolerable for Hozon or even Tokubetsu Hozon. As an example, I know of a Magoroku Kanemoto Tanto that had no boshi (due to having been broken and the tip moved back) and it passed because the mei was a very rare variant and the remaining workmanship was indisputably correct. Had it not been a rare and unusual example of that mei, or perhaps even one of his more usually encountered, it wouldn't have held enough merit to deem it "worthy of preservation".

[NihontoEurope]

Hello,

 

My opinion is that they value the historical value slightly more than the quality of the sword at hand as opposed to NTHK where the quality of work has a more important factor.

 

I think you actually may get Hozon on a "bad" blade where hamon runs off and hagire all over the place. What matters more is what the nakago says or to whom it is attributed. Let's say Mr Masamune...

 

Recently, early this year, I got a Hozon judgement on a blade that was rusty and somewhat tired hamon almost out of polish. I was surprised to get the Hozon.

 

Of course, submitting a blade bent out of shape and deep rust would not get far. I think NBTHK never will surprice me...

 

/Martin

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Jean

 

Try to send to shinsa a sword with broken tip or crack in the boshi or with hamon running out of the edge with a mei or not and wait to see if it gets Hozon.

 

Please, open the DTI catalog year 2010 page 20 sword number 13. It is a Muramasa with Tokubetsu hozon, i had that blade in hand and hamon run off the edge in many places.

 

..I guess the question is whether hozon just certifies the work is genuine Nihonto, or whether they consider it is worthy of preservation only if it passes a certain quality level

 

I wonder if many members recall a sandai tadayoshi bought on E-Bay and submitted here by a member called James. That sword was sent at NBTHK shinsa and got Hozon paper. That sword was for a long time on consigment on Darcy's site. That sword is well tired but nevertheless got hozon .

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/ss.php?title=Muts ... -tadayoshi

[Jean]

Question Jacques,

 

Which generation and when was this blade papered and would it be papered again under new NBTHK policy?

[NihontoEurope]

I guess it would pass, because the overall condition is good and ... the Name.

 

Early Muramasa.

 

EDIT: It would not pass Juyo.

 

Here it is:

[attachment=0]MM1.JPG[/attachment]

 

[attachment=1]MM.JPG[/attachment]

 

/Martin

[Jean]

Martin,

 

Here according Jacques, hamon is running out of the edge several times, this is not my conception of overall good shape (no hamachi left), only justification for a Hozon, nowadays would be first generation, remember we are talking of sue Bizen and in this period, NBTHK is pitiless. I am not sure at all, it would pass TH nowadays, I have seen jo saku blades which could not pass TH and in better shape than this one. During my last visit to Ginza Choshuya (14 months ago) they told me that NBTHK had drastically increased their selection for TH. Too many blades at the end of the last century and beginning of this one would not pass TH or Juyo nowadays.

[NihontoEurope]

Jean,

 

Yes, there would otherwise be an inflation in high level paperwork, again. Not good.

 

The hamon actually runs off at some points. Not a good picture earlier and I would guess, by judging what's left of the hamachi and the flattened out hamon, it would not pass high level papers. Hozon, every time.

 

I'll try to zoom in here:

 

[attachment=0]mm3.JPG[/attachment]

 

/Martin

[runagmc]

Martin,

 

Here according Jacques, hamon is running out of the edge several times, this is not my conception of overall good shape (no hamachi left), only justification for a Hozon, nowadays would be first generation, remember we are talking of sue Bizen and in this period, NBTHK is pitiless. I am not sure at all, it would pass TH nowadays, I have seen jo saku blades which could not pass TH and in better shape than this one. During my last visit to Ginza Choshuya (14 months ago) they told me that NBTHK had drastically increased their selection for TH. Too many blades at the end of the last century and beginning of this one would not pass TH or Juyo nowadays.

Jean- considering that the low valleys in the hamon are a common characteristic in Muramasa tanto - I would think the tanto would still be papered to Hozon and seen as worthy of preservation...

 

Brian- I think kazu-uchi mono would pass Hozon shinsa as long as there are no fatal flaws and they are able to identify a school of manufacture... I would guess they would be subject to pretty much the same guidelines that apply to all swords...

[nagamaki - Franco]

Beyond the advice given here already, some very good, shinsa is a good experience for new collectors to be introduced to the realities of collecting nihonto. Especially when it comes to discovering what you thought you knew or had received good advice on, but didn't. Some swords, junk, obviously should not be submitted. Ah, we all say of course not. To which one must then ask why so many swords fail at some of these shinsa. Neither should swords that are so rough that an outcome can not be determined. If a sword is thought to be good, appears to have a genuine mei of a rated smith, having a window opened should be given careful consideration before submitting. Again, objectives need to be identified as to what exactly it is trying to be achieved, and topping the list should be the question of "quality", and not just will it pass. Be aware that even a sword in new polish that will undoubtedly pass may be in a sense a failure if it is not properly polished. A shinsa judge can only go by what he is able to see, not by what he thinks he can see. Personally, unless there is a special circumstance I would not submit a sword out of polish to the NBTHK in Japan.

[Jean]

Adam,

 

That's what I said, only hozon. concerning the hamon running out, it is impossible to say without having it in hand like Jacques, close up pictures with hadori polish cannot help as they are taken perpendicularly to the blade. They should have been taken with a 30°/45° angle.

 

Franco,

 

Totally agreed.

 

To All, remember that we are talking about normal blades submitted to shinsa and not of sai-jo saku smiths blades.

[runagmc]

Sorry Jean, I guess I misunderstood. I thought you meant it would only paper Hozon if it was identified to be the shodai's work.

 

And I agree about the hamon... A lot of times it's hard to tell from pictures if there could be nioi-guchi just above the ha-saki on hamon like this one.

[Jean]

That was my English, Adam. Nevertheless, if the hamon runs out, it is probably the first generation.

[Eric H]

The Examination Regulations of NBTHK Shinsa are clearly defined in:

 

Kōeki zaidanhōjin Nihon bijutsu tōken hozon kyōkai shinsa kitei

 

Swords with hagire are not papered:

Example Masayuki (Kiyomaro) Katana, Christie‘s Sale 2007/05/16, Lot 0420... but Sayagaki by Tanobe Michihiro.

 

The midareba hamon of the Muramasa Tanto with its very shallow valleys, almost touching the edge, is a trade mark of nidai Muramasa. The Tokubetsu Hozon designation is now and furthermore correct.

 

The formerly mentioned Tadayoshi III Wakizashi was sent for Shinsa in November 2007. The Hozon status it was given is correct.

 

There are swords by important smiths with „solely“ the Hozon designation, and I recall a sword that was priced in Japan against $ 500‘000 with Hozon paper.

 

A well known phrase used by sword dealers:

„It has NBTHK Hozon papers attesting to its condition and quality“

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

On the same site, you can get a katana by shodai Tadayoshi (shorter than the one you quoted) for only 8 000 000 yen. This one is of course Juyo.

 

http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/mn3_1_1.html

 

 

The midareba hamon of the Muramasa Tanto with its very shallow valleys, almost touching the edge, is a trade mark of nidai Muramasa

 

No, you will see that feature as well on shodai and sandai's works and the one i spoke is pretty tired with numerous kakedashi.

[Jean]

We are talking about passing shinsa and not value. An ubu, unpapered ichimonji signed "ichi" was sold by Aoi Art 6m¥ and passed after Tokubetsu Juyo

[CurtisR]

Thank you all for the excellent information! It seems to be - just as sword collecting - a very complex issue :D . As I am not "footing the bill", I want to be doubly sure that I don't give the owner bad advice and get them turned down after the expense of submission if they have no chance of passing.

 

I do know that on the O-Tanto, the hamon does not run off of the edge, and is then probably (according to Jean's observations) NOT 1st generation. The Wakizashi blade is clean but out of polish. Here are images of the mei and blade portions of those I was thinking of submitting (attached). I welcome anyone's thoughts on going further with them!

 

Perhaps having a window opened first might be the way to go...?

 

Best Regards,

 

Curtis