What's a Kantei point?

[Jean]

Following another thread where this question was raised about Kantei trait/feature, what is your opinion?

 

As I don't want philosophical answer, I am going to narrow the field for answers:

 

Does a kantei point can apply/belong to several smiths? This question will bring equally to surface the Den notion. This topic raises, of course, the question of the Gokkaden.

 

For newbies, The gokkaden system is new and was introduced at the beginning of last century when the Hon'ami family strives to find new students as the Hatorei decree has deprived them from their main source of revenue. Patrons wers disappearing and a new kind of students had to be found.

 

Believe it or nor but Nihonto before that time was teached smith by smith. Gokkaden was a try to rationalize this study but has its limits (unfortunatelyy, easily reached)

[b.hennick]

Some kantei points certainly fit a school or tradition. Those are the ones that quickly get up to period and tradition. Finer kantei points such as boshi can help get us to the smith. This kind of reminds me of taxonomic keys to plants or animals. Some of the characteristics of us mammals are shared with fish, birds, reptiles.. others shared by mammals, placental mammals ...hominids and so on. So it is with swords to kantei a sword one starts with the general and reach the specific. There will always be exceptions. A sword smith may have been asked to make an utushi and so the work is rather different. I have a Hizen Masahiro blade that appears to be a boys sword with a notare hamon. That is unusual for the smith but other things including the mei lead to Masahiro.

The book by Paul Martin on Kantei should be in your library and help with this wonderful activity of kantei.

Michael Hagenbusch's explanations of sword kantei are wonderful. When he looks at a wrong answer he notes "You must have seen ... but you must have missed ..." I learned more in an hour listening to Michael than in many hours reading a book. (MIchael is the President of the European Branch of the NBTHK.)

[george trotter]

Following on from the locked thread on hada-ware being discussed as a kantei point for Hankei (or as a kizu and not a kantei point according to some), I can say that when considering kitae, it looks to me like a number of hada can be classified as hada-ware. It may just be me, but any series of lamination openings (kizu?...even if given a specific title) can thus be a kantei point if it appears regularly in the work of a particular smith and/or den.

 

I have not seen hada-ware on a Hankei so I can't be certain how fine/coarse the ware are but Homma sensei describes them as fine openings and says they are a trait (kantei point?) of his whereas some have said his hada-ware are a kizu and not a kantei point

 

For the sake of discussion here is a pic of a blade in matsukawa hada...to my mind these are quite coarse openings in the hada so logically? these would seem to be a kizu. This pic comes from p.84 in "Nihonto Jiten" and the note with the pic says this comes in the area of O-itame. It says this is a distinctive feature (trait) of Soshu Den Norishige (please yell loudly if I have mis-translated)...this comment sounds like it is calling these hada-ware a kantei point.

 

So, here we have a matsukawa hada feature that is possibly of coarser openings in the hada than Hankei's and it is described as a distinctive trait of Soshu Norishige...so I ask, is it a kantei point? and if so, how is it different from Hankei's fine openings trait.

just asking.

regards,

PS, just for the record, I can only distinguish openings in the hada as being kizu or kantei point by knowing if they were intentional or not.

[runagmc]

  Quote

PS, just for the record, I can only distinguish openings in the hada as being kizu or kantei point by knowing if they were intentional or not.

In my mind, it doesn't matter if they are intentional or not (there's no way to know for sure) - only that they are a common characteristic that can help identify a smith's work...

[Jean]

In this case, it is a bit biaised with this example George. In fact, the ware are a side product of this kind of hada (matsukawa) and of the polishes. Reasons for which you will find these kind of ware in Hankei forge.

 

A kantei point is a trait which is found in the forge of a smith, if it is unique to this smith, it is sufficient to itself. If it belongs to several smiths, then you have to add all the particularities of a sword (kantei points) and by elimination you will find the smith. So the ware are a kantei point when all the other kantei points are there.

 

Now, I don't want to discourage anyone but I invite you to read Clive and Mike (Raiden) posts, to reach a high level of knowledge you will have to go to Japan, live there and find a teacher (a good one ) He will teach you Nihonto from generality to particular and you will see there are no shortcut as Gokkaden, each smith has his general kantei points depending of his lineage/origin/school and his own ones which reflect his personnality/individuality

 

Nyusatsu Kantei takes high class swords, saijo smiths but now an Osuriage sword by a lambda smith, have you ever wonder how the shinsa was able to issue a Kanteisho to Kanetaka, Katsuie or a den Norishige. This means that the Shinsa must know all the specificities of a given smith, to be able to say, in the Den case, this sword has all the characteristics of a given smith minus or plus one.

 

The tricky part is when there are too few kantei points in a Osurige blade, many schools have some common traits, this is why you will sometimes for the same blade have different Kanteisho to different schools, but the level shall be always the same (Hozon, TH ..) because there is only one kantei for quality

 

Sometimes you will have all the kantei points specific to a school but no specific ones to a smith, because many smiths of this school had the same kantei points, so you will have a kanteisho issue for the school, it often happens with Koto schools as Mihara, Naoe Shizu.

 

Remember one thing, the kanteisho has two issues : the school/smith and above all the quality.

 

When you are a seasoned collector, you will submit your blade to Hozon because you will want to assess your kantei concerning the school/smith but not the quality. Level of kanteisho are subject to strict rules but who cares, you can have a fantastic Oei blade which will never achieve Juyo because it is machi okuri by 1cm, this does not mean that your blade is not Juyo level in quality

 

That is why I believe in TH rather than in Juyo because a lot of Juyo blades have a ranking which is not based on quality (cf. Compton collection). This will explain why 2 juyo blades can have such gap in value.

[george trotter]

Hi Jean,

Thank you for your comment. My question goes to the understanding members have about what is a kantei point...it was really about logic and was directed at the point of what Homma sensei said about Hankei work having "very tiny" openings which could be considered his trait.

I should have explained that a trait is something done intentionally by the smith whereas if it is unintentional it is a flaw in his work). This question came from the "hada-ware" discussiuon and the statement that any ware is a kizu and not a kantei point. Therefore I explained in my question that matsukawa hada is in fact tiny (even larger) hada-ware yet in the case of Norishige is recommended as an assessment point (ie kantei point) because he is known for it...therefore this form of hada (actually hada-ware) is intentional and is a kantei point for him.

I thought members who say hada-ware is a kizu and therefore not a kantei point might like to comment but they have not.

 

To make the Hankei hada-ware as a kantei point question more definite here is a comment from page 242 of Nagayame "Connoisseur's".....Hankei jihada:

"Coarse o-itame hada mixed with masame-hada looks like Koto jihada, in some cases the jihada tends to be masame-hada. Hankei's unusual jihada is called matsukawa (bark of pine tree) hada or hijiki (a kind of brown algae) hada which is roughly forged and which has abundant ji-nie and thick chikei. It somewhat resembles Norishige's jihada, but is not as clear as that of Norishige".

So, Nagayama is saying Hankei's "very tiny" openings are intentional hada (and thus a kantei point).

 

Personally, I didn't see anything in Homma's comment to describe Hankei hada as a flaw...I saw his comment as asking students to notice his hada as a kantei point.

I think the original question of Hankei's hada being described as a flaw and thus NOT a kantei point for him was based on a mistaken understanding of Homma's comment and this is the real reason we had such a long conversation on the other thread...in effect, too much emphasis was placed on the position that "any opening is a flaw", and not enough emphasis on the smith's hada as an individual or Den trait.

 

I hope this helps.

Regards,

[cabowen]

I would have to think that the ware in Hankei's work are in fact unintentional and are flaws. When one sees the matsukawa hada with these ware, then it points to Hankei when considered with other matching characteristics. They are both flaws and a pointer, when seen with matsukawa (or hijiki) hada, to Hankei.

 

We often see ware in pure masame work and while they are flaws, they aren't looked down upon in general as much as they would be in other hada types because of the difficulty in forging steel on edge without producing ware.

[george trotter]

Well that is interesting Chris...interesting he is so esteemed when so many of his works have flaws (so much so that they are one of his traits!)!

I guess there are flaws and flaws....but interesting too that this is one point to identify his work (taken in conjunction with his other traits)...so it can be said a flaw can be a kantei point?

regards,

[cabowen]

The ware in conjunction with this particular type of hada- they go together....

[runagmc]

Are they flaws?

 

Do they detract from the functionality of the sword? No...

 

Do they detract from the look of the sword? Maybe, slightly...

 

So maybe they can be called flaws, but fairly minute flaws which are acceptable for this method of kitae. Honestly, I'm not sure if they should be considered flaws or not. I guess it would depend on how much they detract aesthetically from the sword.

 

Here is a good picture of a Norishige tanto that shows the type of ware we are discussing. What do you think?... aesthetic flaw or not?

[cabowen]

LIke I said above regarding masame ware, sometimes flaws are overlooked. That doesn't mean they aren't flaws, it just means they are accepted as part of the workmanship.

[george trotter]

I am quite happy to accept the Japanese scholars' separate definition of flaw as opposed coarse hada....and am happy to accept that both can be traits and both can be used as assessment points in certain smiths when all other kantei points coiincide.

Personally I have seen some examples of coarse hada...in the style of matsukawa hada and find it unattractive...I suppose it could have been shintetsu from too many polishes but I can't remember now whether the blades showed tiredness...they were koto blades.

Interesting too that what would be unacceptable in a shinto sword can be tolerated in a koto blade...respect for the aged,,,and quite rightly so....and in rare cases such as Hankei, in post koto work as well when it is a trait.

Thanks for your comments...an interesting topic.

Regards,

[Jean]

This kind of ware are found in Ko Uda school:

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/12085.html

[Henry Wilson]

Off topic so delete if necessary.

 

I have always liked the Ko Uda work. They seem like nice Koto blades at good prices. I wonder why they are so well priced?

[Jean]

Probably they are not fashionable, Henry, they have often a coarse hada with a lot of opening.

[Eric H]

  george trotter said:

interesting he is so esteemed when so many of his works have flaws (so much so that they are one of his traits!)!

 

The Periodic Appreciation Meeting

 

TB 20 - Kantei - HANKEI - “... his jigane is always characterized with the flaws named ji-ware and ko-kizu resulting from insufficient forging for bringing the two edges of the folded metal perfectly together. However such flaws are equivalent to what we call masa-ware that are present in works of the Yamato Hosho school, and instead of considering them defective they have been accepted as important features“.

The significance of Hankei‘s „trait“ is unmistakably explained now I believe.

 

Eric

[kunitaro]

regarding NBTHK or NTHK kantei.

 

The Kantei of Mumei blade, I am maybe a bit too frank, but, The attribution of school is not necessary to be the blade made by that school.

This is judge by　Saku-i(作位) some rating of the quality of the blade.

it is called "Waki-mono".

If it is less level of Yamato-den,older than nanbokucho, it will go to ko-Uda or ko-Mihara,

 

And there is 'Deki(出来)" as other feature.

Good workmanship of ko-uda (上出来の古宇多), etc.

 

This is one reason the attribution changes after Polishing a blade.

especially polished by master polisher, He know how NBTHK(judge) see the blade, and if he can show more what they(judge) want to see, the blade will get higher level of attribution.

 

Plus, Healthiness is one more another feature to measure the condition of the blade. .

 

Attributed as The name of the smith is more characteristic activities.

Related to Kantei for Signed blade.

 

I learned from old people who are(were) board member of NBTHK.

[Eric H]

  george trotter said:

It says this is a distinctive feature (trait) of Soshu Den Norishige

 

If so than this is very seldom seen as I have not heard of it, i.e. to be a trait of Norishige or Den Norishige. I add a pic from my database of a Norishige Katana that exhibits 2 small kizu which follow the grain structure.

 

Eric

[nagamaki - Franco]

Strongly suspect these two ware were not as we see them here when this sword was new but opened up with polishing overtime.

[Jean]

I tend to agree with Franco (see my post above)

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

  Quote

So the ware are a kantei point when all the other kantei points are there.

 

In other words, ware are just a plus. No ?

[Jean]

They are there or not as other kantei points. You seldom find all smith kantei points on a blade.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I think there is a strong misunderstanding of what is exactly a kantei point.

[Eric H]

A kantei point is a trait which is found in the forge of a smith, if it is unique to this smith, it is sufficient to itself. If it belongs to several smiths, then you have to add all the particularities of a sword (kantei points) and by elimination you will find the smith. So the ware are a kantei point when all the other kantei points are there.

Best explained by Jean. I give another example of a strong kantei point: mizukage seen sometimes on blades by Horikawa Kunihiro, however it must be in accordance to other well known characteristics, equally regarded as important kantei points, seen in his works. Mizukage otherwise is a sign of saiha.

 

Eric

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

  Quote

I give another example of a strong kantei point: mizukage seen sometimes on blades by Horikawa Kunihiro

 

If mizukage is only seen sometimes it is not a kantei point.

 

Kantei points depend of what you are searching, Between koto and shinto swords, straight yakidashi is a kantei point. Alone it leads you to the right era. A kantei point is a feature which doesn't need others top find era, den (bizen, yamato ...), school, smith.

 

For example, pure masame could be a kantei point nevertheless it is not one. If i show you two swords with hidden nakago : a Hosho sword and a Sendai Kunikane; hada will be not sufficient to determine which is Hosho and which is Kunikane you need others features.

 

In fact true kantei points are scarce particularly on smith's work. Norishige matsukawa is a kantei point, it can't be confused with another even with Hankei's. At least for a trained eye.

[Jean]

Concerning Hosho/Kunikane/Kiyondo, I have had the opportunity to discuss with Zenon the masame topic. The quality of the forge is not the same. This mean that the type of hada is not the kantei point in itself but the kitae forge which is typical of each school. The only other example which comes to my mind is Naotane hada. Now this leaves about 25000 smiths unaccounted for. This shows the limit of the Connoisseur's book of Japanese swords and the given Kantei points. I come back to my initial post. It takes a lot more than reading books to understand a blade and make a kantei. You must have seen score of blades before being acquainted with the forge of a smith (with a teacher of course ). This becomes all the more difficult, when you deal with smith forging utsushis (Yasutsugu, Masahide ...)

[runagmc]

There are very few sword characteristics that are proprietary to a single smith. If an identifying characteristic is only considered a kantei point when it is unusual to one smiths work, then a kantei point would be a very rare thing.

 

For instance, sunagashi in Kiyomaro's work... it's a characteristic of his work that helps indentify him as the smith, when doing kantei. However, we know that sunagashi is a type of hataraki seen, to some extent, by many smiths over the centuries.

 

To me it sounds like you are saying that for a characteristic to be considered a kantei point, it must positively identify the smith by itself... that kantei must be possible by that single characteristic alone. I don't think that's what a kantei point is... if it is, then the term is almost always mis-used.

[Jean]

  Quote

A kantei point is a trait which is found in the forge of a smith, if it is unique to this smith, it is sufficient to itself. If it belongs to several smiths, then you have to add all the particularities of a sword (kantei points) and by elimination you will find the smith. So the ware are a kantei point when all the other kantei points are there.

[Eric H]

  Jacques D. said:

If mizukage is only seen sometimes it is not a kantei point.

 

A kantei point is like a signpost: presence of mizukage point either to Horikawa Kunihiro or Sendai Kunikane, both Keicho-Shinto smiths, or could be the result of saiha, retempered.... but Kunihiro has also other kantei points, namely his kitae of large and loose grain called zanguri-hada, or Horikawa hada.

 

I add a pic of TB 31, the PERIODIC APPRECIATION MEETING

 

„the most important clue in the blade is the mizukage-like utsuri“

as also

„and his zanguri texture of steel surface is typical enough to indicate the Horikawa craftsmanship“

Eric

[runagmc]

Sorry Jean, my previous post was in response to Jacques... I should have been clear about who's post I was responding to...