Question...

[Pete Klein]

Will this field of endeavor exist twenty years from now, yea or nay? I am quite serious in my query.

[John A Stuart]

A serious answer Pete. Not like it did for the last 50 years. The new breed wants instant gratification, one punch of a button to get the information via e-sources. The years of research are too tedious. I know there must be thousands of collectors out there, many being scammed over and over, (looking at e-Bay etc. sales), probably for decorative reasons. The serious collectors are dying off. Not all doom and gloom though. I think we have a younger generation that will keep a core group world wide alive to preserve a lot of the tradition which may allow for revival when the pendulum swings back. Hopefully. John

[watsonmil]

Dear John,

In case you haven't heard yet, ... the World ends December 21, 2012 !

... Ron Watson

[sanjuro]

Ron.

 

Any idea about how that might come about? We have a few options....

(a) WE expire in a hail of nuclear warheads. A very polular theory among hippies in the 60's and 70's.

(b) Mother nature runs amok and wipes us all out with volcanos, earthquakes and horrible weather. A popular theory among the green fraternity.

© We spiral into the sun. A polular theory theory with the lunatic fringe.

(d) We get hit by a gigantic comet. A polular theory in hollywood.

(e) God just gets angry, turns off the light and power, gives up and walks away, leaving us to die alone in the dark. A popular theory among religious groups. :?

[watsonmil]

Dear Keith,

Since you are in time ahead of me by 17 hours, ... I was kind of hoping you'd e-mail me when it all begins with the low down on just what to expect. Believe it or not I actually have a friend who is expecting the worst, and he's a member of " Mensa " ( high IQ ). I guess having a high IQ does not eliminate one from being stupid ! Anyways to be safe, ... I'm taking Frosty ( my pet Polar Bear ) out for a walk the evening of the 20th and then it's the wife ( once more for old times sake ) .

... Ron Watson

[kusunokimasahige]

Sorry Keith, but this is the lates theory :

 

 

OREOS WILL BRING ABOUT THE END

 

 

Especially popular with cookie lovers.

 

KM

 

But, to answer the OP's original question:

 

Maybe in Japan, where this field of collecting is so attached to its culture, it will never subside.

In the rest of the world, who knows, we still see new members on the forum on a daily basis.

The people who are getting old in this collecting field seem to all be of the idea that these

objects should not all be in a museum, simply because musea do not care enough about them

and cannot or will not take proper care of them

Old collectors feeling they will leave this world probably all have done something with

their collections in their will. However we do not know that of course.

A repository for these swords, highly unlikely.

 

KM

[sanjuro]

I was kind of hoping you'd e-mail me when it all begins with the low down on just what to expect.

 

Ron.

 

No problem... I'll give you a heads up when the fun starts. In the event of a comet however, I may be a little busy expiring. But I'll make the effort none the less. If its orios as KM suspects, I'll email you before I start eating. I see you have your priorities more or less right. :D Obviously you aren't counting on 74 virgins waiting for you in paradise.

[kusunokimasahige]

Obviously you aren't counting on 74 virgins waiting for you in paradise.

 

Which, factually, is a mistranslation of the exact sentence in Arabic. And it is 72 by the way.

 

 

Searching what Muslims refer to as Gharib Hadiths (weak or strange Hadiths) we do find something about 72 wives but not virgins. The Hadith we find is the following:

 

Sunan al-Tirmidhi Hadith 2562 says:

 

The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: “The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana’a [Yemen]“

 

This is as a weak Hadith that has no Sanad — line or sequence of narration. Although listed in an authoritative collection, this particular Hadith has technical weaknesses in its chain of transmitters and is therefore not considered impeccable. As a result, Muslims are not required to believe in it. Even if the Hadith was true, there is nothing about it that says that if someone commits suicide they would get 72 virgins in paradise.

 

Muslims know that the description of paradise or heaven in Hadiths and Quran is allegorical. If not, then Allah would have allowed us to take our bodies with us when we die. But the vehicle by which we could enjoy the physical things (especially 72 virgins ) mentioned as being in heaven, is left behind here in this world to rot and decay away. So we know for a fact that for heavenly rewards, physical things of this world are used to describe things totally non-physical. A Hadith to keep in mind is as follows:

 

The Prophet said, “Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah’s Cause).” (Sahih Bukhari, 4:52:53)

I am sure that 72 physical virgins are a small part of the whole world to be given to someone who has experienced paradise to come back to. Yet the prophet (saaw) has said NOBODY who experiences paradise would want to come back to this world even for everything this world has to offer. If a man was getting 72 physical virgins in heaven, then surely he would get more than that from the world and would be enticed to come back.

 

http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2007/ ... gins-myth/

 

KM

 

Now come on Asteroid, and give us a brilliant end.

[sanjuro]

Henke Jan.

 

It was a throw away line....... I didnt need (or want) the lecture. 72 or 74 ... Whats the difference? each number is as unlikely as the other and the existence of paradise is more speculative than either. Jeez dude. I hope they dont give me the seat next to yours on the bus to hell......... I think I'd strangle you if you started with these lectures in response to anything I said. :D

[kusunokimasahige]

Hahahaha.... professional deformation, sorry !!!

 

Now where is that suicide vest...

 

KM

 

PS : Purgatory would be worse.........

 

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/251869/purgatory

[Brian]

Pete,

You will have to clarify what you mean by field of endeavour. Do you mean the study of Nihonto...or just our little attempt at it here on the NMB?

If the former...I have no doubts. I think any art studies and collecting are just going to get stronger and stronger with increased info and ways to access it. Also, people are looking for places to put their money besides banks.

As for our little forum... Who knows. There are few websites that have lasted that long. In 20 years, maybe we'll have an oshigata database of thousands of shoshin mei and a way to call up 3D holograms of tsuba or swords :lol:

Maybe it will still be here, run by whoever our youngest member is currently. I'd like to hope that the info here will remain somewhere, as amongst all the junk we still have the largest repository of Nihonto info outside of Japan.

 

Brian

[Justin]

Brian, maybe we (the forum members) should start this oshigata/photo database? Include papered items only where the mei has been verified. This would be very useful. There are so many obscure smiths that it is often like finding a needle in a haystack. It would be good if everyone could submit their oshigata/photos and we keep a record of everything.

 

Does anyone have an software that would accommodate this? Maybe we could approach some of the big dealers/commercial sites and ask their permission to use their oshigata and photos (of verified pieces).

[David Flynn]

Thank God I'm Buddhist.

[Justin]

Going back to Pete's original question I hate doing research on the internet. Give me a nice quality book any day. Fortunately/unfortunately the internet can provide alot of clues to help your research, but books are definately preferrable. I use a computer all day at work and hate having to come home and stare at the laptop or iPad screen again to research nihonto.

 

I am also concerned about the future of sword collecting. I just don't see the newbies like we used to. Sometime ago I asked Brian to create a poll regarding collectors ages. I might have to go find it again to see the latest results.

 

How do we find/encourage new collectors?

[Justin]

Poll and comments can be found there:

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5192&start=15&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[paulb]

Hi Justin

I am a little more encouraged than you. Last month we organised a seminar at Leeds Armouries (which you will remember well) We had a combined event which included the European Branch of the NBTHK, The Token of GB and The Northern Token. I was pleased with both the response, the event was completely full, and also at the number of enthusiatic new faces (Many a lot younger than me ) who were there and keen to learn more.

I was both surprised and very pleased and am hopeful that we can do similar events from time to time to continue to encourage new people. I had hoped that the event might stimulate people to join the NBTHK which to me remains the leading source of information and learning material. Whether that has happened I will have to wait and see.

For sure we need to encourage people to study beyond what is immediately available on line and to spend time looking at swords reading books and meeting other students.

[Pete Klein]

Brian -- I was referring to the field of Nihonto and associated works and their study. I am curious as their future.

[Brian]

I think that field is very secure personally. A lot of the neglected swords around come from WW2 servicemen who didn't know anything about them. As that generation passes on, those swords are very often sold off..which means they often go to people with a better idea of what they have. Another factor is the easy availability of info such as the internet and books. There are tons more English books now than before. With increased reference books comes increased interest and pricing.

I think the art of manufacture in Japan might be of greater concern, but I see good things ahead for the future of collecting and preservation.

Just look at SA. A few years ago, we had no real collectors and no info aside from a handful of enthusiasts. Now there is an active society, quite a few members who travel annually to the DTI, and a lot of swords being imported. I expect the same applies to many other areas.

 

Brian

[sanjuro]

Pete.

 

As a serious reply to your question I can only agree with Brian. Here too in Australia, some fine blades are being imported into the collections of a few dedicated collectors. I can only speak of those whom I know, but the knowledge isnt dying, rather it ascends to a newer level where the modern media adds to the overall knowledge rather than relegates it to a simplistic instant gratification level. Study will always be the key to greater knowledge and there are enough keen and persistent younger collectors to carry the flame into the future. Dont write off all the younger collectors as shallow. There is yet hope. I know where you are coming from..........

'To whom do we hand the legacy' perhaps sums it up.

[cabowen]

I can't speak for the rest of the world but I know in Japan the number of collectors in diminishing and there is real concern both for the craft and for the future of collecting. In the US, the number of collectors is also decreasing. In both countries the average age of participants at shows and other events seems to be increasing every year. In Japan, collecting has always been a rich man's hobby and has become that way in the US as well now that prices have equalized. That, combined with the poor economic situation, doesn't bode well for the future in those two countries.

[sanjuro]

Unfortunately, it is true that the collecting of nihonto and associated items is the province of the rich. So is it not natural that the collectors from the more stable economies of the world will inherit the task of continuing where the others have fallen by the wayside. Asia I think is where the new generation of collectors will arise. A sort of 'coming home' for nihonto if you care to see it that way.

[cabowen]

I have been rather surprised, no shocked, to see the interest in gunto I have seen coming out of China....There are several Chinese forums for Japanese sword lovers....hard to imagine....

[sanjuro]

...... And that has always been the first level that new collectors aspire to. One hopes that the interest matures to include earlier blades and examples of tosogu.

[watsonmil]

(edited - Admin)...Getting back on topic, it is my belief that a combination of things will lead to fewer students ( collectors ) of Nihonto. Firstly the Economics of collecting are putting Nihonto out of the reach of most of our young. Secondly the desire for Instant gratification that our young have been brainwashed to expect but cannot acquire in the field of Nihonto. Thirdly the natural attrition of items to collect thru wear, natural destruction ( fire, tsunamis, etc. ), and Institutional acquisitions is also playing its part. Forthly the fascist docturines of many countries governments to limit ( no revoke is a better word ) the right of their citizens the right to bear and keep arms EVEN SWORDS.

[Brian]

This being very relevant to our field of study, I have removed a bunch of off-topic and meandering posts, and moved it here where it belongs. Please keep it on topic. Irrellevant posts will be removed and repeat offenders will be removed too.

 

Ron, in his usual no-bull way, has brought up a good point. Restrictions on weapons and edged weapons worldwide are increasing in more "pc" countries and we already see severe restrictions in countries such as China, some states in Australia, Japan and the UK. This always has a negative effect amongst collectors. Although there are often work-arounds..may ppl do not wat the hassle and would rather study and collect something else. Associations need to be vigilant, and try and educate not only the public, but the governments and media about the art aspects of Nihonto.

This means not only running sword shows, but maybe contacting the media and local goverment and inviting them to the lectures to see what it is about. It is vital that the art aspect is pushed above the "weapon" aspect. Invite the local Japanese embassy officials..anyone who might have an interest in culture.

I think that the latest trend in combining other Japanese arts with the shows is maybe a good one.

 

I did say that I feel the future of this field is good..but we cannot be complacent, and need to know that there are many risks to avoid.

 

Brian

[David Flynn]

Brian, only one state in Oz, Victoria. Still pretty easy to circumvent though. There is also the problem of many older collectors, not willing to pass on their knowledge.

[Brian]

David, true, but that is still 1/6 of the country..with others likely closely examining their law. As I said, many new collectors won't go to the trouble of circumventing regulations. Don't forget, you also can't have double edged "daggers" sent to Oz..which means many people have had endless hassles purchasing ken and yari from overseas.

In my experience, older collectors have usually been only too willing to pass on their knowledge. I am sure many of us are only here because old collectors were willing to teach what they had learned. I say if there are any old advanced collectors refusing to pass on info....share their names here and let's harass them (just kidding)

 

Brian

[David Flynn]

Not to be pedantic , But 1/8th. Northern Territory and Australian Capital Territory, both have the right to self govern. Virtual states

[george trotter]

just on the point of double edged weapons being prohibited into Australia...I can report that a local militaria dealer has pursued the correct Customs paperwork to get a permit (it is possible) and now regularly imports double edged weapons into Western Australia...no troubles at all. The last item, on Friday, was a SS dagger...it came in airmail with the correct customs declaration and was not even inspected by Customs (Customs are Federal).

regards,

[Peter Bleed]

This has been a tough thread to follow -given its many sides and implications- - - and creative wit of the forum.

Let's focus on what the future of sword collecting will look like. It is an interesting topic with real world implications.

I have found the history of "collecting" of interest (we all ought to read Alsop's Rare Art Traditions!) Based on the past, I am sure that collecting will continue.

But, it seems to me that collecting 1)is either the province of the wealthy, OR 2) it happens as a mass activity when stuff is available and cheap.

Japanese sword collecting became what it is today as a result of the chaos and collapse that followed the War. Those conditions are over.

Today, there are not enough rich collectors - and too many mere swords - to support Nippon-to collecting as a wealthy pursuit. Our swords are NOT like Rembrants and Old Master paintings.

In this situation, I am sure that the price of swords will have to fall. BUT when the right price point is reached, somebody will collect them. Chris please tell us how to access those Chinese sword collectors!

I will also predict that the overall condition of swords will fall. Beyond the uncertain future of swordsmithing, the cost of polish, lacquer work, tsuka-maki yah dahh yahh dahh, is so high collectors won't pay for it.

Peter Bleed