Re: Identification Help Appreciated

[Humbabwe]

Hey guys,

 

Obviously, I am new to this place and know nothing about this (compared to you guys- I used to think I did). I would really appreciate it if you could check out these pictures of the katana I inherited from my Grandfather and tell me as much about it as you can. Try and remember that I know virtually nothing about this, so even the most obvious things need to be told to me.

 

I do believe that it is a WWII era sorta mass production sword, but that's all I really understand thus far after having read a plethora of posts on here.

 

Thanks in advance, can't wait to hear!

 

Brian

[Brian]

Brian,

I fear most people are going to tell you it is a fake. That groove ending so short, as well as the bad wrapping and unconvincing fittings suggest so. The actual shape of the blade isn't bad, and the tip is done well....but that groove is really out of the ordinary. The habaki also looks a bit fake..can't make out if the tsuba is ok.

However I am confused by what appears to be a well done and well aged leather scabbard combat cover with well done hanger.

You need to maybe take off the handle and show pics of the tang. easy to do, and will solve the conundrum.

If I had to commit to a guess, I would say fake. Next option would be a ersatz sword made in one of the colonies.

 

Brian

[Humbabwe]

I mean, It's pretty impossible for it to be a fake, as my grandfather brought it home from the pacific in 1945. Unless you know something I dont. I am afraid to disassemble it because I looked up how to do it and don't see any noticable pins to knock out of it. could you explain the process to me? Maybe I'm missing something.

 

Thanks for the response btw.

[Brian]

Take a chopstick, and move the wrap a little near the top of the handle...try either side. You should see the top of a wooden peg through the handle. Just press that out (you should see one side is larger than the the other, since it is usually tapered)

Once removed, the handle will slide off. Don't worry, you can't really damage anything, and that wrap is badly done and probably loose anyways.

Btw..they were doing fakes/repros/assembled-from-parts swords even at the end of the war for sale to the soldiers who wanted a souvenir. At best, it is a very, very late war sword. Let's see what the tang tells us.

 

Brian

[Humbabwe]

I found it, its actually pretty much in the center of the handle... a little closer to the top. But i dont think im going to be able to get it out... its really in there.

[Humbabwe]

And the wrapping is definitely tight, btw. I could barely move anything. I think the pin is in a slight u shape. Its also pretty hard to tell which side its supposed to be pushed from. I also have this pic of the guard:

[hxv]

Dear Brian,

 

The wooden peg is tapered, i.e., one end is bigger than the other end. It's done that way intentionally. If you push it out the wrong way, it won't come out. You might want to get a short dowel (say 3 inches long) with the same diameter as the peg, place the sword on a flat stable surface, and hammer on the dowel to loosen the peg. It should be easy to remove.

 

Regard,

Hoanh

[Humbabwe]

Dear Brian,

 

The wooden peg is tapered, i.e., one end is bigger than the other end. It's done that way intentionally. If you push it out the wrong way, it won't come out.

 

Regard,

Hoanh

 

No I understand that. I meant v shaped in length not girth.

[hxv]

Brian,

 

Is the peg made out of wood/bamboo, or is it a metal screw/pin?

 

Hoanh

[Brian]

That peg is meant to be removed and replaced as needed (make a new one from a chopstick)

That is how the swords were designed. Just use a chopstick as a pin, and tap it out. You can pretty much always move the wrapping a little to the side to clear the peg. They were always made to be disassembled often and easily.

The tsuba looks promising...WW2 style. That blade is still odd though. As mentioned, it is vital to see the tang to solve this mystery.

 

Brian

[Humbabwe]

Any suggestions as to how to loosen the handle once the pin is out? Turned out to be a metal one btw.

[Humbabwe]

Its really tough, doesnt want to budge at all

[hxv]

Brian,

 

I'm left-handed, so you might have to switch my instructions around. I would hold the handle of the sword, tilt the sword with the sharp edge facing up (say 30 degrees, but an exact angle is not essential), and tap my right hand (which is holding the sword) with my left hand. Depending on how tight the handle fits, you might have to tap your own hand pretty hard. I would start off lightly and tap harder as necessary. Don't go full blast or the blade might fall right out and hurt you. Basically, you are using the blade's inertia to remove it from the handle. I hope the instruction helps.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Humbabwe]

Its heavily rusted, and i can see some slight imprints but im not sure if its my mind playing tricks on me... seems to be a round flower closer to the bottom...

[hxv]

Brian,

 

It probably is Japanese-issued, but not terribly well made. I hate to use the term "last ditch" sword, but for lack of better terms, ...

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Humbabwe]

you can see in the first picture there is at least one character... And i can definitely see the edges of what seems to be some sort of sunflower type flower...

 

What is it that points to that for you? You have to remember that I know nothing about this. :D

[Humbabwe]

Also, I'm not exactly curious as to whether it was made for some elite squad of fighters, I'd really like to understand how and why it was produced, and for what kind of soldier. I don't know anything about this when compared to you guys so a little information in your eyes goes a long way in mine. I tried to post something but im not sure if it went through. There is clearly at least one Japanese character on the tang and at least two flower indentations. Any idea what they might be about?

 

Thanks, and sorry for the noobidity.

[Humbabwe]

and how could i safely derust it?

[hxv]

Brian,

 

The pictures you mentioned did not come through. Can you repost? The "round flower" might be an arsenal stamp to indicate it was accepted into the armory. The pictures would help.

 

Please don't attempt to clean the rust in the tang area at the risk of accidentally removing the patina. There are ways to clean the active rust without removing the patina, but if I were you, I would leave it alone. For area above the tang, I would just wipe it down repeatedly with rubbing alcohol with clean paper towels until clean. Then, just wipe it down with gun oil (or mineral oil) for storage. Don't attempt to polish it or sharpen it by yourself. That's the quickest way to ruin a Japanese sword.

 

From handle and the scabbard, it looks like the sword was made for a Japanese Army Officer. I think it is safe to say the blade is machine made (not traditionally made by repeatedly folding the steel). The nakago (tang) is usually the first indication of a sword's quality, hence our request to see a picture of the tang. The tang looks beaten without care - not a good sign. As for the purpose the sword was made: it was made to be a weapon, pure and simple in this case.

 

I don't know that there is much more I can tell you.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

 

P.S. Please sign each and every post. It's a rule in this forum. I'm just a messenger.

[Humbabwe]

Brian,

 

The pictures you mentioned did not come through. Can you repost? The "round flower" might be an arsenal stamp to indicate it was accepted into the armory. The pictures would help.

 

Please don't attempt to clean the rust in the tang area at the risk of accidentally removing the patina. There are ways to clean the active rust without removing the patina, but if I were you, I would leave it alone. For area above the tang, I would just wipe it down repeatedly with rubbing alcohol with clean paper towels until clean. Then, just wipe it down with gun oil (or mineral oil) for storage. Don't attempt to polish it or sharpen it by yourself. That's the quickest way to ruin a Japanese sword.

 

From handle and the scabbard, it looks like the sword was made for a Japanese Army Officer. I think it is safe to say the blade is machine made (not traditionally made by repeatedly folding the steel). The nakago (tang) is usually the first indication of a sword's quality, hence our request to see a picture of the tang. The tang looks beaten without care - not a good sign. As for the purpose the sword was made: it was made to be a weapon, pure and simple in this case.

 

I don't know that there is much more I can tell you.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

 

P.S. Please sign each and every post. It's a rule in this forum. I'm just a messenger.

 

Just quoting so I can easily go back and forth to what you said. I will take your advice on the polishing of the blade, and avoiding the rust removal for now. Thanks for that. So you're saying that most quality swords wouldnt have so much rust at this stage even if they had been sitting in someones basement or hanging on someones wall, untouched, for 70 years? Or is it something else about the tang that tips you off? So it was made in mass production for the soldiers just prior to and during the second world war? Why would some be more quality than others? Status?

 

I really appreciate all your help. In regards to the round flower and the characters, I think (at least with one character) they are quite visible in the first picture i put up of the tang. You don't see it?

 

Thanks,

Brian

[Brian]

Brian,

That tang is terrible. The Japanese took great care in finishing off everything well...even on semi mass produced swords. The lines would be neat and straight, and with filemarks. No rough lines or bumps or beaten areas. This one is far from that. The only possible explanation in my mind is that this is one of the "jeep spring" swords that we hear about that were handmade from jeep axle springs as a substitute for a real sword. That...or a soldier in one of the outlying areas made it in lieu of an issued sword. Even at the very end of the war, the blades tended to be ok...the fittings are where quality suffered. This one has a mix of parts, some real Gunto..and others roughly done.

I am not an expert in these, so hopefully some of the wartime experts will chime in and confirm or prove otherwise. However, if you google search "nakago" (sword tang) you will see what I mean about great care in finishing off the tang.

Combined with that badly done and ill-positioned groove...it had to be an amateur job. I don't see any real militaty stamps or kanji on that tang...anything that is there may have been done by a soldier.

Anyone have any other theories?

 

Brian

[hxv]

Brian,

 

No, I don't see them in the first picture. May be you can zoom in to these features and repost?

 

The rust on the tang of your sword is not normal. Most likely, there was some water on the tang that was not removed prior to storage. A normal tang on a Japanese sword will have a dark, smooth patina (like the color of a well seasoned Dutch oven), not active rust. Even 700-year-old swords won't have rust on the tang if stored dry. Also, Japanese swords have very specific tang shapes, very specific end shapes for the tangs, and even the file marks on the tangs are very specific. You can browse the "Nihonto" forum. There should be lots of discussions with pictures of tangs on the threads of that forum. The tang on your sword seems to be done on the spur of the moment, hence my use of the term "last ditch." Regarding the question of quality, generally, swords made before WWII or early in WWII are of better quality. As the war dragged on, resources became scarce, and the quality of swords declined. Some officers opted to refit their heirloom family blades in regulation mounts. Some officers were from affluent families and could afford more expensive blades, etc. Some blades were actually not made in Japan, but made in occupied territories under Japanese supervision. Some of those blades are of very high quality. Some blades were made with prison labor, under supervision. Again, some of those blades are of high quality. If you are interested in learning more about Japanese swords, we can suggest fairly inexpensive books with lots of good information.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[John A Stuart]

There is a signature, but, it is too faint to read. there are also below the signature two stamps (?) barely visible. The underlying black patina shows some age. Being bashed about is troubling. There is another older sword that had something done drastically to it in this military sword section, remember, the closed up mekugiana? John

[Brian]

C'mon guys. There is no shinogi in the nakago. That isn't just beaten..it was made that way. Look at the wrap...at the diamonds? The same isn't wrapped properly, the kashira is not standard.

Look at that hi...ever seen one like that? Look at the position of the mekugi ana...it's not even close. No smith would drill an ana there...in the middle of the tang?

It all adds up to an ersatz blade or a fake imho.

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

Agreed, something weird for sure. John

[Kai-Gunto]

The kabutogane , end cap ,looks like a new repro/fake.

Same ,rayskin ,looks some how new. Ito ,string ,wrong wrapped.

Low quality sword, looks postwar mounted by a collector.

[Jean]

Have alook at the ito final knot....

[leo]

Hi, Brian!

Like Thomas I also think the kabutogane to be a modern cast and the same-skin looks new. So the whole tsuka might be a later replacement because it got lost.

 

The blade is either one of the countless fakes or in the best case it might be a special order by a member of the Japanese occupation force. Sometimes these were ordered as "ersatz"-blades with local blacksmiths on occupied territory.

 

Whatever the koshirae might be, one thing is sure:

The blade is not a traditionally made nihonto.

 

Best, Martin

[Humbabwe]

See, this is the problem. You guys act like you know what you are talking about, but you clearly don't. This blade is from 1945 Japan. That is a fact. Nothing has been done to it since. All of you who say any differently are simply wrong. I appreciate the help, especially from Brian and Axn??? But the rest of you are just talking s**t (in the British style). One of u is able to see the signatures that I am plainly able to see. I'm sorry I can't recall ur name right now, but I'd really appreciate further input from you. Thanks again, Brian.

[Humbabwe]

Thanks Martin for your input. I appreciate it. Brian