Drago Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 Hi there! Aoi-Art is currently having this auction: http://www.aoi-art.com/auction/en/aucti ... 1213703271 If you look at the oshigata, you can see a second "hamon" at the mune of the blade. Provided of course the oshigata is correct why would you harden the mune of a normal katana (not kogarasumaru or ken). I always thought the mune needs to be soft to keep the blade flexible... Or is th shinogi-ji area still flexible while the mune has been hardened to provide better blocking/non-lethal striking capability? Thanks.
NihontoEurope Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 Tobias, It is called full temper or Hitatsura. /Martin
paulb Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 the oshigata linked actually shows muneyaki (temper along the mune) rahter than Hitatsura. Hitatsura is full temper where you see patches of hardened steel throughout the jihada rather than specifically along the mune. Hitatsura was popular in later Soshu work. I am guessing that its purpose was more decorative than functional. I have no idea why somesmith chose to harden (assuming it wasnt accidental) the mune. It can be seen in the work of many schools.
cabowen Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 Muneyaki, to some extent. often occurs naturally and when it is seen on work that normally would not characteristically have it, it is seen as a kind of flaw or lack in the workmanship.
kunitaro Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 The sword is a copy of Sue-Bizen. The sword with Muneyaki is often seen at late Muromachi period with shorter and fatter blade. They are basically Uchigatana which is used for more close conbat and lough use. Often they received attack with Mune in conbat. (such as Homare-kizu is on Mune) They wanted to be stronger in different way from used of Kiba-sen (on horse battle) It is made with different concept. There are many differet styles blades that tried out at Sengoku-jidai. Later generation (Shinto) of Sukesada made also copy of Sue-bizen with muneyaki. BTW, Bizen blade which is Older than Nanbokucho period shouldn't have any muneyaki. if there is,,, it is re-tempered....
nagamaki - Franco Posted November 25, 2012 Report Posted November 25, 2012 Yamanaka describes two different types of muneyaki, one being more like tobiyaki, and the other is more like yubashiri. Incedental muneyaki will be of the tobiyaki form. At what point does long boshi turn back start to become muneyaki?
kunitaro Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Mune-yaki is tempered (hamon) all way till mune-machi, Long turn back is only Kissaki, maximum till monouchi area. Tobi-yaki (spot hamon) on Mune is just mistake. It can be fixed. you can put heated copper on the spot, and cool it down slowly, then hamon is gone.
Tcat Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 It can be fixed. you can put heated copper on the spot, and cool it down slowly, then hamon is gone. Interesting!
nagamaki - Franco Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 maximum till monouchi area Thank you.
kunitaro Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 often occurs naturally and when it is seen on work that normally would not characteristically have it, it is seen as a kind of flaw or lack in the workmanship. True. Normally, The smith should find out at Kaji-oshi (smith polish), if he missed, the polisher will find out, then he call on smith, " I found Togiyaki on mune, do you want me to take off ??" Smith " Oh sxxt!! Yes, Please " The polisher use heated copper to take hamon off, before final polish. It is part of Polisher's job. self trained or instant trained polisher can not do it. That is one of differences between proper trained and self trained. There is hundreds of those small knowledge which you can not find from only Books.
Jacques Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Hi, Mune-yaki is tempered (hamon) all way till mune-machi, Mune-yaki are also spots on the mune and are not mistakes.
kunitaro Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 mmm if there is many spots all way on mune, then you can say Mune-yaki which i have never seen. but, if there is one or a few spots on mune, then it is called Tobi-yaki on Mune which is mistake. however, you can recognize easy if it is done on purpous or not. if you could post some example, we will examine them.
runagmc Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 The sword is a copy of Sue-Bizen.The sword with Muneyaki is often seen at late Muromachi period with shorter and fatter blade. They are basically Uchigatana which is used for more close conbat and lough use. Often they received attack with Mune in conbat. (such as Homare-kizu is on Mune) They wanted to be stronger in different way from used of Kiba-sen (on horse battle) It is made with different concept. There are many differet styles blades that tried out at Sengoku-jidai. Later generation (Shinto) of Sukesada made also copy of Sue-bizen with muneyaki. BTW, Bizen blade which is Older than Nanbokucho period shouldn't have any muneyaki. if there is,,, it is re-tempered.... Kunitaro san, do you have pics of examples of Sue-Bizen with muneyaki? I don't remember seeing or hearing about muneyaki as a common characteristic of Sue-Bizen. I looked through my pictures and couldn't find any examples with visible muneyaki. It would be interesting to have more info about it...
kunitaro Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Hi, I just came back home. and looked up only Sukesada in only one book. Koto Taikan Sukesata P301 Hirazukuri Tanto P307 Shinogizukuri Katana P308 Shinogizukuri Katana P315 Hirazukuri Tanto If you look other books and other smiths (Sue-koto), you will find many. Later generation (Shinto) of Sukesada made also copy of Sue-Bizen with muneyaki. I will post photo later. If someone has Photos or Book(s) and time, pls, post them. They are not too rare. You can find Mino-den, Yamato-den, or Shimada school, Sue-Soshu school, etc,. I think there is Muramasa sword with complete mune-yaki as well. And the reason why I think it is a copy of sue-BIZEN. Mino-den has Togari-ba (pointed gunome)-sanbonsugi, Yamato-den has more Masame-hada (style) and Suguha-hamon with Yubashiri or hakikake activities (bcs masame-hada) Soshu-den has bigger Gunome midare with strong Nie and kinsugi etc,. Yamashiro-den nie-deki Suguha based with ashi and yo activities (bcs of Hada) And when you see the oshigata of The blade (Shinshinto Munetsugu) The Hamon is Nioi-deki Gunome-midare. typical Bizen style. from those reason, i said, it is made as a copy of Sue-Bizen. Sue-Bizen Utsushi
NihontoEurope Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Turned out to be a very educative thread! /Martin
kunitaro Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 This is an early Shinto Shichibei no jo Sukesada. Sugata is Sue-Koto. This sword has mune-yaki all way on mune, This was my own, so i can see clearly. but no oshigata, and It is an old (Bakumatsu-early meiji) polish, not Kesho (Ha-dori) polish, so, it is very difficult to see on photos, also, when you see whole sugata, you can see the brightness of mune is sparseness. because of Mune-yaki. hope you can see them, BTW, This sword is in Super Koshirae,
Jacques Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Hi, some samples of muneyaki (not all along the mune)
kunitaro Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Thank you for posting example Jacques san, at first, the drawing (black) parts are Nioi-kuchi, And what do you think about all of Mune-yaki you posted ? Do you think, Which one is mistake ? and which one is done on purpose ? I think that all of them are done on purpose. if there is a or a few, or could be 5, Tobiyaki on Mune, they are mistake. (could be fixed, and most of them has been fixed) and could you point Mune-yaki ? and Tobi-yaki ? or other hataraki from your Oshigatas ? Also, Could you point difference of School from your oshigata as well ? Please don't feel offending. It is very good study material. Not only for you, but, for other people. Best
NihontoEurope Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Jacques, Does it say which generation Kunishige in the book? /Martin
Jacques Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Hi, Sorry Martin, Generation is not given. Kunitaro san, I will not say more than it is written in description, Muneyaki and tobiyaki are well quoted except for the Kunishige on which you can see 3 tobiyaki (located in the ji) and 2 muneyaki. I think all are done intentionally too. I would add you can see such partial muneyaki on Horikawa Kunihiro works.
kunitaro Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Thank you Jacques san, Dear Adam san, Now, you have a few example of Sue-Koto Muneyaki and a few Shinto. if you look for more, you will find them. It is interesting subject (and object) to study. I will explain more about Tobi-yaki, Mune-yaki, slowly.
Jacques Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Hi, On the Kunishige sword, it can be yubashiri instead tobiyaki, hard to tell from this oshigata.
John A Stuart Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Almost sure this would be yubashiri on the Kunishige sword especially given Kunishige and lineage use of prominent niedeki. With muneyaki on the mune. What I am missing is the connection you all are making between tobiyaki and muneyaki which are two seperate entities although the causes are the same. John
Jacques Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Hi, What I am missing is the connection you all are making between tobiyaki and muneyaki Personally, i don't make any connection between Tobiyaki and muneyaki, Tobiyaki is (FWIK) spots of hardened area located in the hiraji (and not close to the mune).
John A Stuart Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Earlier in the thread, not by you, and it might be just how I read it, no biggie!! John
Jean Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 i don't make any connection between Tobiyaki and muneyaki There is obviously one by ethymology. Mune + yaki (as in yaki ire) Tobi + yaki (as in yaki ore) Connection is obvious, they are both coming from yakiire process. Now, if erratic tobi yaki on the mune are a mistake (due to mud coating slipping during yakiire process), what is the use of mune in the Japanese sword which makes tobiyaki a danger/a fault when located on it? Is it because mune is used in sword fighting to parry a strike and that the blade could be broken or weakened this being a weak point?
nagamaki - Franco Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 What I am missing is the connection you all are making between tobiyaki and muneyaki which are two seperate entities although the causes are the same. John Yamanaka writes that the difference between the (2) types of muneyaki seen is that in one form "the Yaki is not exactly a Muneyaki but only a stronger form of Yubashiri, therefore the Nie of the Tobiyaki is not as strong or rough and large in the usual sense." Speaking based on experience, swords seen, the Muneyaki seen on early swords, intended, the Muneyaki will be of the Yubashiri form. On later, such as Shinto, the Muneyaki will be of the Tobiyaki type. And of the Tobiyaki type it isn't difficult to judge whether it is intended or incidental for "spotty" reasons already mentioned, plus you can tell by the manner in which the Tobiyaki (muneyaki) is formed, sometimes almost carelessly spilling over the edge of the mune, whether it was intended or not. Once again, it is essential to see quality excellent Muneyaki first, then everything else falls into place.
kunitaro Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 飛び焼き Tobi-Yaki meaning in Japanese is separated sopted Hamon. It looks like 島 an Island. The Oshigata of Yosozaemon Sukesada, There is a few Spot hamon on Ji, Draw like a circle. like Isalnds. The black line(dark) is NIOI-KUCHI, Inside the circle is HA, outside is JI. It can be any where. 湯走り Yubashiri is a part of NIOI-KUCHI. The Oshigata of Mizuta Kunishige. dark spot (inside also Dark) on hamon, That is Yubashiri. It is a part of Nioi-kuchi, Ha and Nioi-kuchi makes Hamon. (and other Hataraki as well) 棟焼き Mune-yaki is meaning Tempered along Mune, Maybe some oshigata looks like separate, but, infact there is (almost) all way on Mune. By photo is more difficult to see (Because, Shinogi-ji and Mune are burnished by Migaki-bo) If there is only Nioi-kuchi (Yubashiri type) all way on Mune, it is still called Mune-yakki, If there is Tobiyaki (small spot) or small SPOT of Yubashiri on Mune, They are Mistake, however, When you see the blade, you can see if it is Mune-yaki on purpose, or mistake. The mistake Tobiyaki on Mune is usually very small (because, it is mistake) and we don't see so much, because, it could be fixed. Hope everybody understand what i try to say,...
nagamaki - Franco Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 I'm most grateful and appreciative to Kuntiaro san and all those contributors here who take the time to explain and define the Japanese meaning of words beyond what is written in the typical nihonto glossaries as it adds much clarification, thank you all.
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