MENUKI for your pleasure

[ROKUJURO]

Gentlemen,

 

Today it is my turn to show an item of my very small collection for consideration or - if you like - for a KANTEI game. I will not give details with the exception of the sizes - 69 and 68 mm long - and the information that they once belonged to a famous collection.

 

I hope you like them.

 

[hxv]

Jean,

 

I don't know much about menuki, but I really like the set in the pictures. My uneducated guess would be kanamono from the Kamakura jidai. I'm ready to be shot down (don't mind it, either).

 

Hoanh

[John A Stuart]

Good call. I'll bid Ezo. John

[Soshin]

Hi Jean,

 

Nice menuki set thanks for posting. I would agree with John and say Ezo.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Curran]

Well, I guess I am the dissenter here.

My shoot from the hip impression is very late muromachi or momoyama okimono ko-kinko / kinko menuki.

I guess I should choose, so: large (early) momoyama ko-kinko menuki. Not as precise as they could be, but have their own rare appeal.

 

Design is that we see in some of the earlier Muromachi Ezo menuki, but the copper and the rendering looks much more like some of the large copper menuki we see from the late-late Muromachi period on in to Momoyama. Richard George had a large set of Fu Dogs from this period, in similar copper, that he sold years ago. Excellent pieces to study. Finesword.com com has a pair of such okimono late muromachi 'Ezo' menuki of a pine tree motif. They would be slight precursors to these menuki.

 

I always wondered for what sort of koshirae they were intended. Probably only seen a half dozen to eight sets of this type in the past ten years.

 

That is my 2.5 cents.

[ROKUJURO]

Gentlemen,

 

it seems to be difficult. Maybe I should add some information.

 

These MENUKI are signed, but not with an artist's name. I have no confirmation or official paper concerning the authenticity of the items. Although they once were part of a famous collection, there is no 'official' description of them; even the signature is not mentioned (not found?).

 

Parts of the surface had been gold coated (petals, buds), but most of the thin gold wash was lost during use.

 

If EZO means HOKKAIDO, then it is not correct. The signature locates it on HONSHU.

 

Don't give up, there is no money but honour to be gained!

[drbvac]

I have no idea but again do not miss the honour - I do however like them very much

[Curran]

Ezo does not mean Hokkaido.

It also certainly includes northern Honshu.

 

Unless these are some of the Yasuchika knock offs,

I'm still betting the way I did.

[John A Stuart]

Here is a set I have come across via R. Turner's facebook site that was photographed (owned?) by R. George. The pic is copyrighted, however, I think he won't mind it being posted for educational purposes. I hope, eh? Richard? These may have decorated the saya as kanagu did at one time. See the similarities? Gilding still evident. Ezo!!! John

[Pete Klein]

Not Ezo - wrong metal. Ezo will have a silvery look with thin gold, usually mostly worn off, and a blackish patina from the gilding process (mercury evaporation I believe). They often do not have posts but when they do they are often inyokan. I would give these to Edo Kinko, chuki, until mei is established.

[John A Stuart]

Ahh, good point. I wonder what is meant by, Quote "These MENUKI are signed, but not with an artist's name." Unquote. John

[ROKUJURO]

...... I wonder what is meant by, Quote "These MENUKI are signed, but not with an artist's name." Unquote.....

John,

 

it is a school name.

 

These MENUKI once belonged to the Behrens Collection and were probably sold in the auction 1913 or 1914. They are item No. 376 in Volume III, if I remember it correctly. Henri Joly did not mention the signature, which I can understand if you consider the huge work he had to do.

 

I add some explaining pictures and look foward to your esteemed comments!

 

[John A Stuart]

How strange, 奈 on one and 良 on the other for 奈良 Nara!!! Way later than I would have supposed, I mean Nara Toshiteru was not even born until 1667 and I would have never thought these that young and stylistically never. Surprise!! John

[hxv]

Hi Jean,

 

I see that I was way, way .... off course. Very nice pair of menuki!!! The simplicity of design and the color of metal are so attractive. There is just this zen quality to them.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Henry Wilson]

There is just this zen quality to them.

Respectfully, I would beg to differ.

 

This page is a good read: http://artsites.ucsc.edu/faculty/lieberman/zen.html

Here are some quotes from it.

 

The Zen artist tries to suggest by the simplest possible means the inherent nature of the aesthetic object.

 

The job of the artist is to suggest the essence, the eternal qualities of the object, which is in itself a work of natural art before the artist arrives on the scene.

 

I feel that the menuki do not exhibit what is quoted above. Basically there is very little suggestion. True Zen art draws you deeper into the object and each time you look at it, you experience something different. I personally feel these menuki do not do that.

 

They are very nice by the way.

[ROKUJURO]

......I feel that the menuki do not exhibit what is quoted above. Basically there is very little suggestion. True Zen art draws you deeper into the object and each time you look at it, you experience something different. I personally feel these menuki do not do that.......

Henry,

 

thank you for these interesting aspects brought into the discussion! While I will not make any remarks to the aesthetic values of these MENUKI, I would like to defend Hoanh, as in my understanding he is free to see in an object whatever he feels. 'If a rock speaks to me - fine'! Although I read a lot about ZEN I try to get independent from fixed or 'official' interpretations. In my experience ZEN is a very individual thing and often encountered in daily life, may that be a natural plum twig or a pair of plum MENUKI - but this is my personal view of it.

[hxv]

Thank you Henry for the link. It is indeed a very good read.

 

Thank you Jean for your clarification and for coming to the rescue.

 

At any given time, my mind is always full of thoughts - what to do to complete me tasks at work, what to do for the kids at home and in college, what the game plan is for tomorrow, nihonto & fittings, etc. I would say 99% of us working stiffs are that way. For lucky retirees, I am sure it's the same, just different worries. A few times a day, I try to clear my mind by short meditation exercises. My goal is not to achieve the "null" state, for lack of better term, but to minimize screaming thoughts in my head and put me in a mentally quiet state. When doing this, I find it helpful to close my eyes and focus on a mental picture. It helps me achieve this quiet state more quickly. When I look at Jean's menuki, I find myself mentally calm - most of my thoughts and worries are cleared from my mind, and I am much more aware of any disturbance in my thoughts. It's a very pleasant state of mind. This is the basis for me to make my comment about Jean's menuki having a "Zen" quality.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Henry Wilson]

Thank you gentlemen for your thoughts.

 

I completely agree with you on the points that you have made. What you are saying is what has made Zen so appealing in my opinion.

 

However it seems to me that you are referring to a Zen attitude that you have as opposed to a Zen quality that an object possesses. The way I understand it, your Zen thoughts are being "stimulated" by an object which indicates that the Zen quality is in you. Put another way, how we see something does not necessarily mean that something is, and it does not necessarily give something a Zen quality. If I have the right attitude I could say that this computer is Zen, but that does not necessarily make it so.

 

I wise man once told me, to understand Kaneie, Nobuie, Yamakichibei and all the great people in the tosogu world, you need to have an understanding of Zen. This lead me to discover this book which I feel explains very well what makes something Zen (if words are able to define it) .

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Zen-Culture-Tho ... 0394410726

 

Also, below is a good essay which some of you might find interesting:

http://www.friesian.com/divebomb.htm

 

Finally, to me this tsuba has Zen quality. I chose it as an example because the design is not abstract and is clearly of a tea whisk used in tea ceremony, just as the lovely menuki are of blossoms and a branch.

The suggestivness, the roughness, the detail and the seemingly rustic look to me epitomizes which we sense as Zen quality. I can't find the colour version, but I think this black and white will do.

[John A Stuart]

That is a supreme ultimate of Jingo tsuba. John

[ROKUJURO]

......your Zen thoughts are being "stimulated" by an object which indicates that the Zen quality is in you. Put another way, how we see something does not necessarily mean that something is, and it does not necessarily give something a Zen quality.......

Thank you for your knowledgeable comments and the useful links. I think I understand what you mean.

 

I am thinking back to the times when Japanese teamasters travelled to Korea, 'screening' hundreds of mass made rice bowls for their potential to be used for CHAnoYU. l wonder if these very few CHAWAN they brought back had unintentional ZEN quality although they were made by simple craftsmen, or if they had this 'spirit' because they were chosen by aesthetically 'trained' connoisseurs.

 

What I would like to know is if an item can have ZEN quality even without a human eye seeing it (this may be used as a KOAN :D ). Isn't ZEN in this context the result of an interaction between a person and an object? I have a tendency to believe that we learn rules of how ZEN shows up in an item, we achieve a special aesthetical competence as teamaster, collector, or connoisseur, but the evaluation still remains a question of interpretation.

 

I have to confess that I have the same questions with the MINGEI movement. While I like these items generally very much, I believe that it is at least very difficult to produce, say, a tea bowl or a basket, with the intention to work unintentionally. On the other hand it may be safe to say that the old Korean potters probably did not have the consciousness of producing work of high artistic value.

 

So I think we may see or feel qualities in an object, and the more we are trained the more we might see or know. I admit that this 'training' may also result in an increased sensitivity and not just remain on acquired knowledge and the rules of arts.

 

Maybe this has become a discussion which has led us away from TOSOGU, so if a moderator feels this is inappropriate here, please push us to where this may fit.

[hxv]

Dear Henry and Jean,

 

Thank you for such wonderful discussions. I must admit I learned a great deal through these discussions. I will order the book recommended by Henry and ponder it. I understand Jean's question as well. There is a direct analogy to Jean's question in quantum mechanics. Does the state of a physical system depend on whether or not it is observed? In physics, the answer is "yes." This answer is a deep mystery, but one that has been shown through rigorous modern physics experiments to be the correct answer. In other words, without observing a physical system, I only have a probabilistic picture of the system. The exact state of the system is "fuzzy," and I can only place a probability on the system being in a particular state. However, the moment I attempt to measure the state of the system, what I get in the measurement is what the state of the system becomes, until the next time I disturb it. So, by measuring, or interacting, with the system, I, in effect, "change" it. This is in essence Jean's question. I would have to say, from my personal perspective and from my professional training, my answer to Jean's question would have to be yes. I believe that whether something has a Zen quality depends on the person looking at it. We can disagree on certain issues and interpretations but I have tremendous for you gentlemen, not only for your knowledge and intellect, but for your courtesy in our discourse.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

 

P.S. I wouldn't mind sitting down with you, Henry and Jean, for a pint, a few shots of single malt, cognac, or sake, whatever your vibe is

[John A Stuart]

In that Zen or Chan as it relates to Hindu or Buddhist philosophy, coming from dhyana, means meditation, anything that engenders a contemplative mood can be considered as imparting Zen. The object itself does not have this quality; it can only be the instrument. The chawan and indeed any object demonstrating age, impermanence and change is said to have wabi sabi, most specifically sabi, quite apart from Zen. Some artisans showed great skill in artificially demonstrating wabi sabi. Chado appreciates this sentiment and is why there is such a strong connection between it and some tousogu artists. John

[Soshin]

Hi John,

 

Nice quick write up of what Zen is. The only minor points I could add is that Chán is the Chinese term for Japanese Zen. Chán was a translation of the Sanskrit word dhyana (meaning meditation) into Chinese. Chinese Chán is a school of Mahāyāna Buddhism notable for its emphasis on Dharma practice and meditation. As for the menuki the expression of wabi-sabi is in the worn gold inlays and the patina of the base metal in my opinion.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Henry Wilson]

Thank you all for such fascinating write ups. I find myself with a lot to ponder on. I think I will revisit that Hoover book again (it is free if you have a Kindle ). Best regards

[ROKUJURO]

.....I wouldn't mind sitting down with you, Henry and Jean, for a pint, a few shots of single malt, cognac, or sake, whatever your vibe is .....

Yes, that would be fine as I am just around the corner (Germany) :D . I would take a simple SENCHA.