Help with date and quality of this modern armour.Late EDO ??

[Mark Andrews]

Greetings fellow collectors.

 

I Just need some sound advice on the age and quality of this set of Japanese armour please.Located in Japan.

 

I was looking at this set of armour to buy as a display at my home. I have been given many pics to look at. I have been told this armour dates back to the early 1800's 19 century Late Edo ? No repairs and is complete. Comes with original box.

 

I have little knowalage of armour and I know to repair older ones can be costly to fix and maintain etc. Would this dou for example, go with the era and style of this kabuto ? And is it in keeping with method & historical accuracy?

 

And help / advise would be appreciated. Thanks .

 

Cheer's, Mark

[IanB]

Mark, A good straightforward armour in good condition. I would think late Edo period is exactly right. The only issue I can see is that the internal ties inside the dou are broken and need replacing - a very simple job. At first glance I had doubts about the suneate but despite the colour of the lacquer. the fabric and its edging do match. Interestingly, this is about the third armour I have seen for sale with the same kamon - I wonder if some family are selling their treasures.

Ian Bottomley

[Justin Grant]

I too have looked at that gusoku, and have wondered about the lacing on the Dou. It looks slack at the top, and maybe that is just me being picky. I don't think it is a matching set, but that is not to say it is not original parts, just think some parts are from other armor.

 

For 400,000 JPY or $5,000 US, you could do much worse on ebay for that same money. There are some real pieces of junk there for the same amount of money.. The place that is selling this armor have been real good to me on my purchases, so I can reccomend them from an honesty and ease of transaction standpoint.

 

Good luck

[Mark Andrews]

Mark, A good straightforward armour in good condition. I would think late Edo period is exactly right. The only issue I can see is that the internal ties inside the dou are broken and need replacing - a very simple job. At first glance I had doubts about the suneate but despite the colour of the lacquer. the fabric and its edging do match. Interestingly, this is about the third armour I have seen for sale with the same kamon - I wonder if some family are selling their treasures.

Ian Bottomley

 

Hi Ian, thank you for your information and observation. I was a little worried that this armour may have been made in the early 20th century. I was looking for a good clean armour at a fair price in the Edo period. Just not any later in manufacture.

 

Ian, you made mention that the top of the dou needs repair with new ties. I am not sure were this part is to be fixed ? I will ask the seller. I just hope there are not 3 sets of armour the same selling on the net :lol:

 

Thank you Ian, for your info.

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

[Mark Andrews]

I too have looked at that gusoku, and have wondered about the lacing on the Dou. It looks slack at the top, and maybe that is just me being picky. I don't think it is a matching set, but that is not to say it is not original parts, just think some parts are from other armor.

 

For 400,000 JPY or $5,000 US, you could do much worse on ebay for that same money. There are some real pieces of junk there for the same amount of money.. The place that is selling this armor have been real good to me on my purchases, so I can reccomend them from an honesty and ease of transaction standpoint.

 

Good luck

 

Hi Justin, thank you for your observation & comments.

 

So this maybe a marriaged Armour set. I would think this being a later period armour, any added parts would make this a much cheaper buy and as resale goes, it would be a bad investment in the future. Yes, I have had a number of good dealing's with this seller in the past and I also totally agree with you on the service. Has been fair with postage also.

 

PS any other comments welcomed by others thank you much appreciated. The lacquer is black in colour.

 

Thanks again, Justin.

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

[DaveT]

It looks re-laced to me. It's not plugged either through the odoshi-no-ana. The slack sections kinda promote that.

 

Not a crime, and it will keep together for years to come. Nice armour, not sure about the three byo on the mabizashi or the kamon o the dou?

[Mark Andrews]

It looks re-laced to me. It's not plugged either through the odoshi-no-ana. The slack sections kinda promote that.

 

Not a crime, and it will keep together for years to come. Nice armour, not sure about the three byo on the mabizashi or the kamon o the dou?

 

Thanks Dave, for your comments. Maybe the byo ( 3 ) was used to locate a central mandate crest fixture at sometime.I am not sure.

 

I can ask the seller about the re-lacing also. Thank you for picking that up .

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

[IanB]

Mark, The internal ties are what really hold the upper plates of the dou together, the silk lacing being largely decorative. These ties are leather thongs that pass under the silk lacing on the main plate of the dou and out through pairs of holes in the lower edge of the plate above where they are tied off. In effect they lock the upper plates to the body of the dou and to each other. Because they have broken, all the weight has been thrown onto the silk lacing which has stretched. When the ties are replaced, the silk will settle back and look OK.

 

Justin, The fabric on all parts of the san gu is a blue damask with a design of flowers and leaves, and all are edged with ko sakura gawa. The only indication they may have been associated is that the edging of the kohire is a plain leather. However, the edging of the padded collar on the inside is a blue braid. I do find it odd that the suneate are lacquered the colour they are but I have seen armours with what look like non-matching suneate before - they were after all the part getting most 'hammer' when wading rivers or walking over muddy ground. Maybe they don't belong but they have been mounted on the same fabric as the rest. When that was done I cannot tell from photos and maybe even with them in hand. I don't like the fancy knotted green cord and kohaze on the sode, They should be plain loops of blue braid as elsewhere, but the general lacing of them looks perfectly compatible with the rest of the armour. Clearly the tsunamono that should hold the crest has broken off, but I have no problem with the three byo, they are just a bit of fancy and are repeated on the sode.

 

Dave, I'm not sure the lacing isn't plugged - look at the 2nd and 3rd plate up from the bottom of the sode - its not prominent I admit but a couple of pale dots appear. I agree with you about the kamon on the front and on the fukigayeshi, they don't look too convincing hence my comment about seeing several recently. They do not however detract from the armour as a whole and may be easy to remove, provided the dou hasn't been drilled to fasten it on. I still think it is in general a very reasonable armour in good condition.

Ian Bottomley

[Justin Grant]

Thanks Ian. You answered the questions I had, and it its clear now. Thanks for the education.

 

Justin

[DaveT]

As Ian said the dou breast plates can be fixed back into position.

 

You can loosen off the cross knots and feed some leather through the odoshi-ana, then re tighten them, if they have stretched too much you could pull them through and cut them to length under the cross knot. About two hours of fiddling.

 

Here's a photo of a nightmare job I did. But it illustrates whats required.

 

I was thinking that the lacing has been replaced in areas due to the slack, its not consistent. A quick lace would sell the dou, and not many dealers will spend the time to get it 100% right as its a commercial decision.

[Mark Andrews]

Hello Ian,

 

Thank you for taking the time out to explain to me in some detail about this particular armour . I now see what you are saying about the different parts and how they would match each other or not match each other. Looking at the fabric and edging of the piping etc.

 

I did contact the seller about the top of dou, and yes he did say that 1 side of the shoulder area has broken away.

 

I also asked about the armour being relaced and he said it had not been replaced as far as he knows. I still find my gut feeling saying that this armour is much newer than 1800 . But I am not an expert far from it.

 

Ian,I have your book now which is a great read and has also helped me. Thank you again for your help.

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

[Mark Andrews]

As Ian said the dou breast plates can be fixed back into position.

 

You can loosen off the cross knots and feed some leather through the odoshi-ana, then re tighten them, if they have stretched too much you could pull them through and cut them to length under the cross knot. About two hours of fiddling.

 

Here's a photo of a nightmare job I did. But it illustrates whats required.

 

I was thinking that the lacing has been replaced in areas due to the slack, its not consistent. A quick lace would sell the dou, and not many dealers will spend the time to get it 100% right as its a commercial decision.

 

Thanks Dave,

 

for the pic and suggestions. So the white parts are a leather thonging and the blue lace is pulled through and looped.Then the white thonging is really holding and taking the slack or the weight of the damaged blue lace. Dave ,if the dou was completely relaced then there would not be any white leather thonging used.Would that be correct.

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

[DaveT]

You will find maybe three sets of holes on the bottom of the two upper plates.

Just tie them to the first two holes of the cross over knot (x)

 

I plug the backs of the lace now with sheep skin. Ignore that part of the photo, it was one of my first jobs.

if you buy the armour and get stuck PM me and i'll send you some photo's using some broken down armours I have here.

[Mark Andrews]

Thanks Dave, I placed a realistic offer in last night, Giving the information about repair etc .Unfortunately my offer was rejected on the armour. There was no room to move because of the low price tag.

 

There must be other Japanese dealers in Japan that have a selection.I just don't see them on the net.

 

Is $25,000 USD about the price for a nice quality armour ? And I mean NICE ! There are so many variants with price.And sometimes the older sets of armour are less in price.I get confused. It must come down to quality of manufacture. And how its all put together and condition.

 

Thank you for your offer to help Dave.

 

I will keep saving and then look again.

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

[DaveT]

Thanks Dave, I placed a realistic offer in last night, Giving the information about repair etc .Unfortunately my offer was rejected on the armour. There was no room to move because of the low price tag.

 

There must be other Japanese dealers in Japan that have a selection.I just don't see them on the net.

 

Is $25,000 USD about the price for a nice quality armour ? And I mean NICE ! There are so many variants with price.And sometimes the older sets of armour are less in price.I get confused. It must come down to quality of manufacture. And how its all put together and condition.

 

Thank you for your offer to help Dave.

 

I will keep saving and then look again.

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

The above armour would realistically fetch between £3-5,000 in the UK. There is nothing really special about it, and many nice armours were made during the edo period and later which can have some unique features. If you spend around £10,000 + you should be able to source a very good armour. After that it comes down to provenance/age, which increases the price.

 

There's also the "true" gusoku argument promoted by Toraba that everything should be 100% matching in terms of sangu etc. Personally it means nothing to me as if the items complement each other as composite suit can be just as rewarding, its a marketing ploy as I used to match and exchange the material on the sangu. But this still needs to be taken into account if you are sourcing an armour as investment, as composite suits can be snobbed off a little. I'm sure Ian B will support me in saying the true gusoku rule is bollocks.

 

Lets face it, if you want a display item that will increase in value buy an edo period suit for around £5k, hell if you have $25k buy a few and fill a room. My only tip from a commercial stand is to make sure the helmet and mengu are nice, most of the armours value is invested in the head gear these days. Its only us Katchuphiles who get turned on about a special type of kote, or suneate set.

 

Its like anything, high price doesn't guarantee quality, so I would also urge you to buy carefully (buyer beware). The members here can steer you towards a safe and good sale.

[IanB]

Mark, As Dave has said, $25,000 will buy you a very good armour, or several of the quality of the one that you showed. Whether an armour is 'homogeneous' or not has always been a dilemma. I have two that definitely are and several that might be. Even those that definitely are could well contain re-used elements that the armourer has incorporated into his new creation. Quite a few daimyo had armours made that incorporated helmet bowls made by famous armourers of the past. Although we know little of the armour trade for the many, I have always been convinced that a middle-rank samurai would select ready-made pieces and have them lacquered and mounted into an armour. What few images we have of armourer's shops show the walls covered with pairs of sleeves, shoulder guards and the like for the customer to make his selection from. Those even lower down the scale probably bought second hand or ready-to-wear, assembled from a mixture of new and pre-used parts. Sakakibara Kozan hints at this. Even in Europe, great princes were sometimes painted wearing armours that were clearly 'a bag of bits'. In battle you wore what worked for you, not what some fashionista thought was stylish.

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

 

Is $25,000 USD about the price for a nice quality armour ? And I mean NICE ! There are so many variants with price.And sometimes the older sets of armour are less in price.I get confused. It must come down to quality of manufacture. And how its all put together and condition.

 

 

Mark, I have posted links to six well know samurai armor dealers with good reputations, you may know some or all of them, browse their listings, ask if they have anything in stock that is not listed and ask them to contact you if they get any new stock, if you find something interesting post a link or photos here and see if it gets ripped apart by the usual suspects. If anyone else has any suggestions I am sure they will list them. There are other armor dealers in Japan and other countries but many do not communicate well enough in English to make a purchase feasible unless you have help so I would suggest sticking to dealers who ship internationally and can communicate in English. Many dealers will take a few payments on an item which is helpful, let us know if you find anything interesting.

 

http://www.kinokuniya.tv/

http://www.giuseppepiva.com/

http://www.yoroikabuto.com/

http://www.winterjapaneseart.com

http://www.yamabushiantiques.com

http://samurai-gallary.com/

[Mark Andrews]

Thank you Dave, Ian & Eric . Again your input is most welcome

 

Thank you for your help and support. I can see now why this forum is so highly rated. I think we all know that Japanese antiques " the real stuff " is a very expensive hobby indeed. I know back in the 1980's the prices in my neck of the woods was just crazy.

 

A set of armour back then was out of reach for me. The Christies auction books with there prices were mind boggling to say the least. Hollywood star,Rock singer I am not. But I think I can with help from others here on the forum 2012-2013. I should be able to achieve my first set of armour. Gents , I have digested all of your valued information and now its up to me to start learning myself. Eric, I have placed your info onto my computer short cut. I have used one seller and found him great.

 

Gents, I have noted also this business about Children's armour past of as a small adult. Is this to do with the EDO boys day or coming of age Can you please advise what is classed as a real adult size dou or armour . I know the average Japanese adult male was around in WW2 was about 5/4-5/6

 

Many thanks

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

[Luc T]

one advice I will give on everybody who want to buy a kabuto or gusoku, buy something really good. You won't find this for a cheap price, but it will satify you instead of give you the permanent feeling you have to acquire something else.

One time a lot of money is better than waisting 10 times a bit of money.

My most expensive armor gives me every day satisfaction.

My cheapest is for sale, but no one wants it.

[Mark Andrews]

one advice I will give on everybody who want to buy a kabuto or gusoku, buy something really good. You won't find this for a cheap price, but it will satify you instead of give you the permanent feeling you have to acquire something else.

One time a lot of money is better than waisting 10 times a bit of money.

My most expensive armor gives me every day satisfaction.

My cheapest is for sale, but no one wants it.

 

Hello Luc,

 

Thank you for your advise. In most cases I have tried to buy the best on my budget with Japanese antiques. Unfortunately I also look at re-sale these days. Just in case I have to sell it on to a larger audience if commitments change. With Japanese swords and armour I totally agree with you. It is better to save a couple years more, then buy that super sword / or armour you have always wanted. You will not regret I think.

 

Luc,

 

I will keep looking in regards to armour. I can see why some collectors like the older armour.But in my mind the later EDO armour appeals to me also. As long as it is made in the traditional way and a reasonable price..

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

[Justin Grant]

Luc,

 

Send me info on your set for sale.

 

Me