To Oil or not to oil...that is the question!

[CurtisR]

Greetings all - I again want to exptend my thanks for all the great info. lately and for some great training in Nihonto collecting.

Now to my question...I've read conflicting opinions about storing Nihonto in their saya (both traditional & metal sgingunto) as to whether one should keep a *very* fine layer of choji on the blade, or whether it is best to remove all oil before putting back into the saya.

 

I live in a very dry, mountainous climate but can be humid in summer. I've read that when re-mounted to shirasaya, oil should be kept off of the blade when stored (resting). I usually clean my shinken at least once a month as taught by my Sensei, but have a friend with a number of Nihonto and don't know what to recommend to him (or how to keep my own single Nihonto until I get it in shirasaya). he lives nearby in the same climate.

 

Opinions and success/failure stories welcomed!

 

Curtis

[SwordGuyJoe]

Store with a fine layer of oil.

[sanjuro]

Curtis.

 

This has been discussed here frequently. What kind of oil, how much, how often etc, on so many occasions it has almost become a ritual. Search topic will probably bring up several threads. FAQ likewise. Not that we dont like to talk, but rehashing such basic information has limited appeal, and the info is easy to find. :D

Basically, a fine layer of oil when in shirasaya and no oil (Dry blade) when in koshirae. A shirasaya has a gutter at the sayajiri for oil to drain to, and a saya does not. This is one reason you need to keep a fairly close eye on a blade mounted in koshirae.

[kunitaro]

Also,

Shirasaya can be opened and clean(re-shape) inside of Saya and put them back together again.

with this way, you can use clean 

Shirasaya for a long time.

so, First Shirasaya should make much bigger(thicker) to use longer time.

 

you can not open Nuri(Lacquered) Saya. so, the oil will stay in saya which will damage the saya in th furure.

 

This is already spoken however.

[CurtisR]

Excellent - thank you gentlemen!

 

Cheers,

 

Curtis

[Hans Kondor]

Hello guys,

 

my question is mainly for Kunitaro as I know he has a katana which he uses often.

 

Kunitaro san,

 

after you practised with your sword, I guess you clean it and than...? Do you put oil on it and put it to a Shirasaya or if someone use and clean his sword often he doesn't need to oil it?

How long a sword can be kept in koshirae without oil before it will get rusty. I know there are several factors which can lower the time like high humidity, but I am still curious.

[kunitaro]

After using the blade, washing blade with water and dry well with dry cloth and put it back to Saya. i don't have Shirasaya for it. some people has two sayas.

if you check once a week or so, the blade will not get rust.

it is not so difficult to take care of the sword, easier than a car or a gun. i think.

 

Old master pieces are a bit different though...

but, that's same as a car or a gun too.

[Mark Andrews]

Greetings Kunitaro san,

 

Sorry to jump in gents . May I also ask a question to you please regarding my sword and application of clove oil / Choji

 

I have a sword which I have just bought. I have cleaned it and then powder and then oil again.

 

But for some reason this blade is showing the clove oil as beading like water droplets. My other swords do not have this affect.

 

Have you seen the oil bead like small droplets of water.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark.

[sanjuro]

Wrong oil or too much oil. When all the interstices in the steel are full of oil, the new oil you put on will bead. Try leaving the blade dry for a little while between cleanings. Too frequent cleaning and oiling will have this same effect. if you arent using the sword, ie if its just in shirasaya or koshirae the need for cleaning is minimised. I live in a fairly dry climate and my collected swords in shirasaya are only cleaned and re-oiled twice a year at most. Even this is probably overkill. My iai sword is cleaned after each use as is my shinken which is only used for tameshigiri. Both of these blades are only mounted in koshirae for the purpose of being used. Any other time they are kept in shirasaya. :D

[kunitaro]

What kind of sword ?

 

No oil for nuri(lacqered)-Saya.

[CurtisR]

As with Kunitaro san, for MJER practice I keep the blade dry: my process for "shinken" has been to wipe clean, oil, then wipe dry again and back to koshirae. Having decently acquired a 'collector's piece', I was wondering what would be best for it in Gunto mounts until I can fit with Shirasaya where it will be kept.

I completely agree that beading or cloudiness = too much oil left on. My focus was on the Nihonto, which I never had, so my Sensei never discussed it . Just a note also...in Iai, several kata require handling the mune, which WILL rust within a week if not cleaned & oiled afterward.

 

Again, great comments & info and many thanks!

 

Curtis R.

[kunitaro]

No Oil. No Uchiko for Koshirae (incl. Gunto) Please

 

Those are for only art polished blade in shirasaya.

 

Regarding meaning of "Shinken"

"真剣 (shinken)" is meaning "Real blade" in Japanese.

If (western or Chinese) people use this word "Shinken" for other meaning, it will make people confused.... a bit tricky...

 

what do you think ?

[Brian]

I've had beading that was caused by a layer of old oil or something that wouldn't let the oil coat the blade.

Remedy:- Pure alchohol to clean the blade, then dry and apply the oil..no beading. However after the oil, I usually wipe it off so that there is no visible layer of oil.

 

Brian

[CurtisR]

Kunitaro san,

Yes - it does create confusion - agreed. We only do Tameshigiri with Chinese blades that (if one bends, etc. in training) it is only $200.00 compared to $3000.00 +. To us here, shinken = "sharp sword".

 

I do understand your point however. And I will not use uchiko (I've never trusted that stuff anyway) or oil on Gunto or Nihonto. As you say...only for art-polished blades. Thank you very much for your wisdom!

 

Curtis

[Mark Andrews]

Thank you Gents for your reply.My sword is a Wakizashi.I will try cleaning and let dry. If this does not change the problem I will try Alcohol.

 

Curtis, great thread thank you.

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

[kunitaro]

Alcohol is good ( I use too) because of it evaporate quick.

but, same time, it drops temperature of surface which could create moist from the atmosphere.

 

so, still make it dry very well with dried cloth.

[Mark Andrews]

Thank you Kunitaro - san. I have cleaned blade, I will let dry. Not sure on location of Alcohol to buy, will check on Monday the Chemist etc .Thank you again for your help.

 

P.S. I have just added the pics for everyone interested to look at. This is the problem that I had, sorry for the bad photo's. I have learned alot from this thread.Alot of great info thank you.

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.

 

  kunitaro said:

Alcohol is good ( I use too) because of it evaporate quick.

but, same time, it drops temperature of surface which could create moist from the atmosphere.

 

so, still make it dry very well with dried cloth.

[kunitaro]

Is this oil on the blade ?

and is it clean now ?

[John A Stuart]

It just looks like way too much oil. I use a very lightly oiled cloth that leaves a thin film. John

[sanjuro]

It does look just like too much oil, as John suggests. However, there is one other possibility. If there is any wax on the the blade surface, (and it is not unknown for some uninformed previous owner to wax a blade in order to protect it from rust), the oil will react this way. I had a blade some years ago that did this whenever it was oiled. Wax was the problem. In my case it was old fashioned car polish that had been used on the blade. A good clean down with alcohol should strip off any wax if it is present.

[Mark Andrews]

Hi Kunitaro-san, John & Keith,

 

Thank you for getting back.Yes ,I have removed the oil now and I will let it dry out. I believe Keith, maybe on the money with regards a wax or a totally different application used.

 

This sword recently came from Japan to me here in Australia. The owner may have used another type of oil or application. Which certainly doesnt agree with my clove oil.

 

I think I will start again soon with using 100% alcohol. This should remedy the problem. And then use a ( new bottle ! ) light application of oil again.

 

Cheer's,

 

Mark.