You gotta see this!

[Dr Fox]

This post is number 1.

 

I have posted this in the Gunto section, as the blade has not been formally identified as to period.

This sword came to me, and cost me no money. I accepted it purely out of its quirky overall appearance. The fittings are supposing a military background, but with a few weird twists.

The Tsuka, is a same over wrap(not the tidiest) and has a plain iron loop sarute, with a company officers blue/brown cord. Where the sarute enters the kabutogane are two discs, both discs read Tsuba Maker* ??? The Menuki look to be standard Gunto.

[Geraint]

Looks interesting Dennis, more images please. Especially of the blade.

 

Cheers

[Dr Fox]

This post is number 2

 

Its saya is wood with a leather cover. With one obi-tori.

The blade is in recent polish, with a reed style habaki, its size at 22 ¾ suggests it an o-wakizashi or a kodachi (pick me up on this)

Remove the tsuka and horror, what has happened here? It appears that the nakago has been hammered to reduce its width, crushing the old ana in the process, why would it have been too wide to start with?

[Dr Fox]

Please regard these posts as being in a reverse order. This is no 3

 

Now the blade has a pleasant look, and presents itself as elegant. There I stop! before the Gods of excellence rise up and devour me lol.

No one can say with any certainty what has happened here, so should you feel able to kick this around, be my guest.

Regards

Denis,

[Dr Fox]

Hi Geraint

 

3 postings from me in order but of course backwards on the board lol, not my day.

Cheers Denis.

[Jean]

Denis,

 

One topic should have been enough, no need to made 3 different ones. I let Brian decide if he wants to merge them or not.

[Brian]

Denis,

All topics merged into one. Please remember you can add 5 files in one post, and then use "reply" to add to the topic..and not "new topic"

Also, upload as jpeg's please. I have deleted the .tifs which won't display.

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

Thanks Jean also Brian.

 

I have made a pigs ear on this subject before, thanks for your patience. Trying again with blade pictures.

 

I think its worked.

 

Regards Denis.

[Geraint]

Hi Denis.

 

This one seems to have been kicked into the long grass so let me resurrect it. I can't do enough with the koshirae image to see detail so points may be irrelevant but here are some things to think about. If the leather collar around the fuchi can be gently slid up the tsuka what do you see? This looks a bit like a cross between civil mounts and late war.

 

At the length you quote it is basically a wakizashi, some people would want to call it an o wakizashi or there is a term which seems out of favour at the moment which is chisa katana. It is possible to find nakago that have been modified in a variety of ways to fit military koshirae but they are almost always done very well, this one appears to have had a hard time of it. Assuming that the sword all fits together tightly and seems to be of a piece then the possibility that it is a last ditch sword, assembled hurriedly from what was available suggests itself.

 

No answers but some ideas for you to kick around.

Cheers.

[John A Stuart]

I think this is a katana that has been damaged with the whole thing shortened by an amateur metal smith or mechanic. The slotted ana where the metal has been hammered ( see peening divots) and closed them, the undulations along the edges of the nakago showing hammer marks. The nagasa seems OK. As to O-wakizashi or chisagatana appelation. Why make it difficult. Wakizashi by definition. John

[Dr Fox]

Hi Geraint

 

Underneath the leather retaining strap is a copper fuchi, which is of a plain design, it fits well on the tsuka. As to fittings it falls between civil/military, and gives credit to neither. I have seen articles on last ditch weaponry, and could agree this could fit here.

Yes it all fits together, but I reserve my judgement on 'well'. The nakago is a mess, and spoils what could have been a fair, if not better sword. I saved it from being junked, just out of sympathy for what it could have been. Looking back from the kissaki, there is a nice blade for 16 ins, with the ha and munemachi at that point, I feel this would be a passable wakizashi.

 

Thanks

 

Denis

[Dr Fox]

Hi John

 

Just clarify a point for me, are you saying that this was a katana, shortened, and then damaged as at its present state? The thought that this was a katana originally, was not something I had considered, because the swords profile is so reduced compared to a katana.

 

Regards

Denis.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Denis, Yes. That is what I think may have happened. It was longer at one time and some few inches have been lost. Not necessarily true, but, my thought. John

[Dr Fox]

Thanks John

 

What threw me, was, for this blade to compare with other katana's I own, the blade has to grow another 4.5inches of cutting edge, long sword but no meat.

 

Regards

Denis.

[John A Stuart]

I understand. If you imagine that the shinogi extended into the existant nakago and has been obscured by the hammering and having been shortened and machiokuri as well then the nakago is now composed of what used to be blade length. John

[george trotter]

Hi Denis,

it is possible that the nakago was thinned not for the tsuka, but for the habaki...perhaps the blade had received a few polishes over the years and the nakago was then "fatter" than the blade at the ha-machi. The nakago was then "thinned" to allow a workable habaki to be slid on.

There are two caveats to this hypothesis:

1. Usually a nakago is carefully filed to thin it for this purpose, so yours being beaten thin is a mystery unless:

2. The blade was in a fire or somehow heated (saiha?) and the beating was roughly done at that time?

 

Whatever the answer, I have never seen this before and can only offer guesses...sorry.

Regards,

[nagamaki - Franco]

If I were a betting hombre, my bet would be this sword was [previously] mounted in D-guard mounts at some point.

[Dr Fox]

John

 

The suggestion that this blade has been shortened!. With the hamachi removed, underneath the profile of the nakago assumes a blade profile, even though the nakago has taken a beating, the suggestion is there. Un-shortend! wouldn't one expect some width leading up to the ha machi? Its not there. Cheers.

 

Denis.

[Dr Fox]

Hi again George

 

Got your point. Now having seen my post to John, it looks the habaki is sitting in a new position on the blade, just try me on this: The blade was shortened, but looking at the crushed ana's, if they were original for the tsuka, then the blade loss is very little?

 

I appreciate its all guess work and thank you all for it, but despite all this, it looks as if several attempts, have been made to retain this blade. Despite its state, can this blade be considered nihonto?

 

Measurements

Mihaba 28.3mm

Sakihaba 19.5mm

Kasane 6.0mm

 

Denis.

[Dr Fox]

Franco

 

This sword being mounted in D guard mounts, is not beyond reason, suggest the sword was altered for D guard, and butchered into its present state?

 

Regards

Denis.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Am suggesting it was 'butchered' in order to be placed in D-guard mounts. I say this from having seen similar coming out of other D-guards. Rush to war perhaps, no time for fit and finish.

[Dr Fox]

Thank you Franco.

 

I'll stand by you on this, cheers.

 

Denis.

[John A Stuart]

Here is a nakago adapted for a kyu-gunto that was done well. John

[Dr Fox]

Nice example John

 

For my own benefit, could you tell me?

How much of the nakago was originally blade? I ask, because I am thinking you wanted to indicate a shortened sword. I also doubt myself on that theory, as the hamon seems to me, to run out at the ha-machi! Straighten me out on this one please.

Denis.

[george trotter]

I am still uncertain about the method and purpose of the treatment to this nakago.

I have had perhaps 6-8 "D guard" nakago in hand and have seen maybe twice, three times that many in sales/dealers pics and none of them looked like this...I would divide them about equally as 1/3 o-suriage/suriage katana, 1/3 ubu or suriage wakizashi and 1/3 ubu Meiji/Taisho gunto blades. One sword only, in uchigatana koshirae, looked as if the nakago had been bent slightly uchizori at one time...possibly for a "D guard" (no other explanation I can think of)...if this was correct I would say most likely a Kyu-Kaigunto mount as they seem to be more curved down in the tsuka than Rikugun Kyu-gunto...other than this one example, all other nakago were filed to fit in the usual way.

 

The second point is...was this nakago heated to soften it or was it hit cold. Either way, there must be some evidence of filing to regain the lines to fit a tsuka? Are there file marks? What would be the effect on a forged blade to be hit cold? If hit hot, then the hamon would be affected at the ha-machi...do I see evidence of saiha at the ha-machi on one side?

A mystery indeed to me.

Regards,

[Dr Fox]

Since my last post on this, I have had contact with a man who seems to know his stuff. What he had to say, ties in with comments made by both George and John.

 

He is of the firm opinion that this is an 'ersatz sword', fashioned in a field camp, using items to hand and a blade recovered from an earlier period. The nakago was reformed, perhaps not using a forge but a ready fire source (possibly to recover damaged metal). In hand exam of the total sword, shows it is well fitted for purpose, and would have served well.

 

The blade is very probably nihonto and if so? could indicate a Japanese re-build as opposed to a native copy. (Will you guys please jump in here, for my benefit please?)

 

A few days after this appraisal, he contacted me to indicate Pages 42+43 Plates 55+56 of RF and RG's book Military Swords of Japan. I must admit, to me the similarities are numerous, the combat saya, plain iron tsuba, leather retaining strap, standard menuki, crude tsuka wrap and the non uniform kabuto-gane with a plain saru-te.

 

If there is any truth in the above, then this "oddity" has its own place in WW2 history, if not then its still a conversation piece. (Might be why I rescued it from oblivion)

 

thanks in anticipation

 

Denis

[george trotter]

While I can't agree or disagree on the field camp story, I would say that your sword fittings are far superior to the sword pictured in F & G's

plate 55 (upper) and plate 56 (right). The other sword pictured in those plates is a common grade Type 3 gunto. As the blade is not shown in F & G I can't comment on it's quality (probably island made) but yours seems a nihonto.

I think your sword and fittings fall into the "normally found variations" of WWII...just the strange hammered nakago is still a mystery.

Regards,

[Dr Fox]

It's really all speculation, but the best mystery is, why beat the hell out of the nakago, when it can be seen, there are two ana,s already there, and at worst could have been pressed into service.

 

Its been a fun piece to kick around, so unless anyone wants to comment (blade), this is for the long grass, thanks to all for your considered input.

 

Denis.