cabowen Posted October 15, 2012 Author Report Posted October 15, 2012 kunitaro said: re-confirmation... Showa-to is meaning "Mono steel and oil quinched blade". correct ??? Yes! I will let this run for a few more days before giving the answers. *edit admin* Quote
drjoe Posted October 15, 2012 Report Posted October 15, 2012 cabowen said: "re-confirmation... Showa-to is meaning "Mono steel and oil quinched blade". correct ???" Yes! : wait a minute... showa-to are monosteel AND oil quenched? just to be clear, couldn't some showa-to be not quenched at all, or folded steel but not tamahagane (mantetsu, etc.), or even monosteel but water quenched (assuming that was even done)? my guesses were based simply on what i thought might not be tamahagane AND water quenched (i.e. "traditionally made"). Quote
cabowen Posted October 16, 2012 Author Report Posted October 16, 2012 drjoe said: wait a minute... just to be clear, showa-to are only blades that are monosteel AND oil-quenched? can't some showa-to be not quenched at all, or folded steel but not tamahagane (e.g. mantetsu, etc.), or even monosteel but water quenched (assuming that was even done)? my guesses were based simply on what i thought might not be tamahagane AND water-quenched (i.e. "traditionally-made") Showa-to is a rather loosely used term for any non-traditionally made blade made during WWII. Usually they are made of western steel and oil quenched. There aren't any water quenched, western steel blades, and few if any oil quenched tamahagane blade. Some western steel blades were partially forged, but these are rather rare, as are other varieties, like the Mantetsu, etc. For this, identify anything you think is non-traditional.... Quote
runagmc Posted October 16, 2012 Report Posted October 16, 2012 I would guess 9 and 10 could be non-traditional from these pics... This is a very difficult game with such a limited view of the swords... but it will be interesting to see the answer... Quote
cisco-san Posted October 16, 2012 Report Posted October 16, 2012 I guess all are non-traditional except 3, 7 and 9! Quote
paulb Posted October 16, 2012 Report Posted October 16, 2012 I hope you will put us out of our misery soon Chris the suspense is killing me Quote
cabowen Posted October 16, 2012 Author Report Posted October 16, 2012 paulb said: I hope you will put us out of our misery soon Chris the suspense is killing me Another day or so as people are still responding with guesses. Quote
Bruno Posted October 16, 2012 Report Posted October 16, 2012 5 looks oil quenched, for the rest....I am not sure. Quote
mdiddy Posted October 16, 2012 Report Posted October 16, 2012 *edit admin* I can humbly answer 5 and 9! Long live the Seki stamp!! Quote
Markus Posted October 16, 2012 Report Posted October 16, 2012 This is IMHO a very good excersice provided by Chris to calibrate our conclusion drawn on the basis of some pictures provided on the net, regardless of the showato, star stamp, traditional nihonto discussion going on. I think that 90% of all the blade and fittings discussions going round here on the NMB start with - let´s say - unprofitable pictures. But that is the only chance we have here anyway, so let´s face it. At a real sword meeting and if you are in that hobby for a certain amount of time, a rotation of some degrees under a good light and having the sword in hand are enough to see if a sword is traditionally made or not. So let us use this thread to see what conclusions we draw from seeing only "the tip of the iceberg". From that point of view I say all are showato and maybe 8 gendaito. I´m looking forward to the solution. :D Quote
chrstphr Posted October 16, 2012 Report Posted October 16, 2012 my uneducated vote is they all are. Chris Quote
chrisf Posted October 16, 2012 Report Posted October 16, 2012 Well done Chris,what a treat the last week or so has been for us gendaitophiles,the 'Kiyokatsu' thread was excellent and many thanks to George too for his input,some great posts based on well researched and documented facts and now you can treat yourself to a bit of a chuckle while we would be sword fanciers make a right pig's ear out of your little test! I have no doubts that I'll be waaaaaay out but my call is that all are Showa-to except 1,3,6. No.1 looks a bit like some Akihide school hamon that I've seen (although there look to be 'hard' spots at the peaks...) No.3 looks to have recent polish and visible grain (polisher wouldn't polish Showa-to would he?OR WOULD HE?) No.6 looks traditionally made. I rest my case.....I think.... Quote
cabowen Posted October 16, 2012 Author Report Posted October 16, 2012 It may be informative to give your reasons for your opinions..... Quote
cabowen Posted October 16, 2012 Author Report Posted October 16, 2012 chrstphr said: my uneducated vote is they all are. Chris Why do you think so? Quote
chrisf Posted October 16, 2012 Report Posted October 16, 2012 Who sir?Me sir? It's the look of the steel and activities,I had a Showato by Nagamura Kanekiyo a couple of years ago that showed similar characteristics as seen in some of the blades you've shown,I think overall it's just the feeling you have after owning bundles of Showato and some good swords as well,in other words,intuition and guesswork! Quote
cabowen Posted October 16, 2012 Author Report Posted October 16, 2012 Just want to be sure that we all understand what showa-to means.... I can give at least this hint: they are not all showa-to as defined in the first post! Carry on..... Quote
chrstphr Posted October 17, 2012 Report Posted October 17, 2012 cabowen said: Why do you think so? Hi, my observations which are probably moronic, photo 1,2 and 3 .... blade looks oil quenched photo 4, the activity seems superficial, like it wasnt forged Photo 5 hamon looks like a modern repo type blade photo 6......looks acid etched Photo 7 .... Boshi hamon looks too round, like its machine made assembly line photo 8.... the Hamon doesnt look right, in the photo its just puffy white steel, cant see any activity from forging photo 9 and 10.... look oil quenched photo 11 ... looks like nihonto, but i had a feeling that one was a trick one that looked right but was made with western steel. if i got to pick one to have, it would be photo 11. Chris Quote
b.hennick Posted October 17, 2012 Report Posted October 17, 2012 I have hesitated becaue I do need to see a blade in hand to make a reasonable judgement. Given that handicap shared by all I will say that to me only numbers 10 and 11 appear to be traditional, hand-made, water quenched blades (Showato). Quote
george trotter Posted October 17, 2012 Report Posted October 17, 2012 From the comments here it sounds as though people are still using the word Showato/showa-to/showato to mean different things? Since I am one of the earlier answers I would like to ensure my answer meaning is understood. I said IMHO all are traditionally made nihonto (yes, made in the Showa Era so technically Showa To, but not "Showato/showa-to/showato") except possibly #5 and #8 which, being entirely nioi hamon with no nie/ko nie visible to me suggests what is called Showato/showa-to/showato (made in the Showa Era, but not traditional tetsu, forging method or tempering process). I am assuming that Chris has taken them all from the SHOWA Era and so I applied my examination test to them in that understanding. I will say that this exercise is a bit scary because I have seen Showato/showa-to/showato that had nie (but were not traditional tetsu) so a number of these could fall into that category...but, based on Chris' guideline of mono-steel, oil tempered showato, I am prepared to stand by my appraisal (but I am keeping my finger on the "shame/embarrassment" emoticon face just in case....soooo, we'll see! Regards Quote
chrisf Posted October 17, 2012 Report Posted October 17, 2012 Likewise George,I didn't feel that confident when I posted my answer,less so now! Quote
Jussi Ekholm Posted October 17, 2012 Report Posted October 17, 2012 Well I try not be be affected by the answers by more experienced collectors and I'll go with my initial gut feeling. (plus I got to handle one similar blade yesterday to one of the examples). 1,5,6,9,10. Can't wait to see the answers. Quote
Daniel Posted October 17, 2012 Report Posted October 17, 2012 This is a fantastic place. Everytime I think I've learned something I realise I don't know anything. Nonetheless my guess are 1, 8 and 9 Daniel Quote
NihontoEurope Posted October 17, 2012 Report Posted October 17, 2012 My guess is: 2,4, 6 and 11. #9 is too difficult to judge/guess for me. The hamon looks suspicious - that is why I deemed them Showa-To /Martin Quote
drdata Posted October 17, 2012 Report Posted October 17, 2012 Very late to the game (work sucks, but happy to have a job). As no answers yet (officially), I will throw down: #5. No hada, seems oil quenched/etched hamon #9, for same. #8. Less sure, but seems bar stock/oil quenched. The other examples appear to have nie and noi. With benefit of hindsight I think I see a trend forming. Would be nice to see results as a poll. A fun game to be sure. Regards Quote
Peter Bleed Posted October 17, 2012 Report Posted October 17, 2012 This has been great fun. Thank you Chris! I just decided to 'get serious' and make decisions I could live with. I went back, looked at the posted images, tried to make reasoned decisions, and made a list that would be reasonable. Having done that, I went back and looked at my earlier assessments. Holy, poop! I was really way off - - in one or the others of my assessments! It is time, Chris! Tell us the answers - - and get ready for the raft o' crap that will come your way after you tell us the answers. Peter Oh, and P.S. thanks for a great post! Quote
Grey Doffin Posted October 18, 2012 Report Posted October 18, 2012 My turn to be wrong. #s 3,5,8,9, & 10 might be Showato. Grey Quote
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