Nashiji-hada

[Danocon]

I have been searching through forum for info on Nashiji-hada. Found a lot of nice examples. But I am really looking for the how of it. I understand it is a denser form of Komokume-but what does the mean? Just more folds?

 

Anybody have anything that can point me in the direction how it is produced? I find it quite captivating.

 

For anybody that is interested here is the current state of the Kagi-ba I am building. Everything is working. The 2 hp Chinese motor on the powerhammer however did commit suicide last weekend . New 5hp Baldor waiting in the wings

 

 

Here is video of forging and breaking up some orishigane made from 1800's wrought iron nails.

Not wanting to start a discussion on making swords this is not the place. But feel it is relevant in the study of Nihonto. Orishigane is very common with contemporary smiths at least. Very few of them if any rely solely on Tamahagane.

[Ruben]

Hi Danocon,

 

congratulations, your forgery looks good, lot of work and passion for shure, must be very exiting!

What I think is you have to forge your orishigane much thinner, before breaking. I saw many pieces broke of when hammering, that for maybe you should but it more often in the heat whilst the process. Also take a bigger "chop" for the power hammer, don´t now how to call it... I mean the attachment that is punching the metall.

Regarding the Nashiji- hada, abundantly clear I can´t say somthing usefull, but I will add my thoughts.

Making Masame, I can Imagine it´s necessary to fold just diagonal axis, so at least it has something to do with folding axis.

I think Nashiji- hada is one step before becomming Muji- hada, but on the other hand Muji- hada can have any pattern, just it has to do with number of folds.

I simply still don´t now nothing about forging.

 

Regards

 

ruben

[paulb]

Dear Dan,

I have spent a lot of time recently studying Nashiji hada. In reality it only exists in work of the Awataguchi School but others such as Rai and Hizen attempt to get close to it. Until I saw the examples of nashiji close up I thought they had succeeded but in fact they were nowhere near. The use of Muji hada was an attempt in Shinshinto times to emulate the nashiji acheived in the 13th century Yamashiro group of Smiths.

One reference I read (cant remeber which) describes Nashiji by sayining they believe it is very tight ko-itame but it is too small to see clearly. This is further confused because it tends to be created by very tight forging combined with profuse ji-nie.

The question then comes as to how they did it. I am not sure anyone really knows for sure. However you have to assume a couple of things.

1. The raw material was of extremely high quality and purity, lending itself to the formation of nie in considerable quantity.

2. The smiths continued to fold the steel to the ultimate point they could before either loosing hada altogether or burning off all the carbon. How they knew when to stop I have no idea.

I have to say and I am totally biased in this that having seen Awataguchi nashiji hada there is nothing else like it and it is stunningly beautiful.

I wish you luck in trying to make it. If it helps I have a lot of images of Awataguchi work which I will forward to you if you pm me your email address.

Regards

Paul

[kunitaro]

Dear Dan san,

 

What I know is,

 

Nashiji-hada (Pear Skin) which is small dot on fine surface.

for the Japanese sword is Tight Fine Itame or Kokume hada with fine Ji-Nie.

 

need good quality Tamahagane,

need Forging (folding and welding) with lowest temperature without any borax stuff (Wakashi-zuke)

to keep the steel sensitive for Yakiire.

and Cray and Temperature of Yakiire makes Ji-Nie on Ji...

Combination of tight hada with fine Ji-Nie makes Nashiji-Hada.

 

Easy to say, Difficult to do....

[Danocon]

Thanks for all your replies.

 

Ruben,

Yes the Orishogane does need to be forged thinner. Plus I need a better set up for breaking the pieces. I was just excited to actually do SOMETHING towards making a sword. Seems like I have been getting ready forever

 

Paul,

PM sent-thank you.

 

I think Paul and Kunitaro-san are on the right track. The material, I suspect, has a huge influence on the result. On one hand we really don't know a lot about the smelting practices in the 13th century. On the other hand the reduction of ore to iron or steel is a pretty straight forward process. The devil, as always, is in the details. There are a boatload of variables that affect the finished product. Raw material, type and quality of charcoal used, time, temperature, clay for walls and on and on. Was it a direct steel reduction or was pig iron (cast iron) produced then further processed into steel similar to the modern Bessemer process. Many people are saying that the tatara method of producing a kera with pockets of tamahagane is a relatively modern process. That the Zuku method of creating pig iron first is a more likely scenario for earlier times.

 

I don't know but I intend to try and find out with the resources available to me. I have found an isolated pocket of very high grade magnetite in Texas. I have dug several tons of what I hope is suitable clay from my own property. Availability and quality of charcoal is always the choke point in the process. I have a fairly stable process to produce high quality charcoal as well a reliable (and cheap :D ) supply of the wood to make it. I will be testing with a small Kodai furnace.

 

In the last paragraph is an enormous amount of variables. Then, as Kunitaro-san detailed, there is the actual processing of the material into a finished blade. AND THEN- assuming all the right stuff is in the blade there is the task of polishing it to the point that it can be seen.

 

Difficult?-yes. But then it would not be be fun if it wasn't :lol:

[cabowen]

Best of luck to you! Please keep us posted with examples of your progress...

[Ruben]

Hi Dan,

 

my former Sensei had a sword, made from a smith from Poland.

This sword had some kind of Nashiji- hada and was forged from swedish steel, maybe this helps.

Indeed swedish steel is somthin special, or was...

Maybe this info is of any value.

 

Greetings

[kunitaro]

This is a bit different subject from Nashiji-hada,

 

A secret of old Jitetsu

Old Tamahagane,

material/Satetsu was collected by Kanna-Nagashi method which is using river stream to choose Iron sand by　gravity.

It contained 4 time more Titanium(IV) oxide (TiO2) than the material collected by magnet. and there is more un-magnetic material in it.

Tatara with this material, a lot of sparks, and Slug with some Zuku come out, and some more Zuku stay in the oven.

it is called "Zuku-oshi" method.

Tio2 and some un-magnetc material makes different reaction in Tatara smelting process.

 

This is a report of Experiment by a swordsmtih Yoshihiro Kubo (a student of Yoshihara Yoshindo) with Hitachi Metals Co.,

They are still discovering myth of Ancient Japanese sword.

[runagmc]

Kunitaro san, you're full of interesting information. :D I'm glad you joined the forum...

[Danocon]

This is a bit different subject from Nashiji-hada,

 

A secret of old Jitetsu

Old Tamahagane,

material/Satetsu was collected by Kanna-Nagashi method which is using river stream to choose Iron sand by　gravity.

It contained 4 time more Titanium(IV) oxide (TiO2) than the material collected by magnet. and there is more un-magnetic material in it.

Tatara with this material, a lot of sparks, and Slug with some Kuzu come out, and some more Kuzu stay in the oven.

it is called "Kuzu-oshi" method.

Tio2 and some un-maginetc material makes different reaction in Tatara smelting process.

 

This is a report of Experiment by a swordsmtih Yoshihiro Kubo (a student of Yoshihara Yoshindo) with Hitachi Metals Co.,

They are still discovering myth of Ancient Japanese sword.

 

Kunitaro-san,

 

I have just been reading about the Kanna-Nagashi. Apparently it was also the cause of one of the first environmental fights. As I understand it the iron sand dug from the mountain is only about 2-3% iron. Huge amount of dirt and sand had to be dug and washed out to get the 97% or so iron sand needed to feed the furnaces. The excess was washed down into the river and caused all kinds of problems for farmers.

 

You are correct about still discovering the secret of ancient iron. TiO2 is usually considered a contaminant but small quantities in the Tatara process it seems it can force the iron to take up more carbon. My sources are limited since I cannot read the multitude of papers published on the tatara process. There are a multitude of people around the world smelting iron. But by far they are are trying to recreate medieval European practices and producing sponge iron.

 

The Kera-oshi, Zuku-oshi and now this new one from you Kuzu-oshi are very different processes with very different end results.

So much to know :D .

[kunitaro]

Sorry. Spelling mistake again.

I meant "Zuku-oshi"

 

Used "Akoma Satetsu" collected by gravity method contain 12.5% TiO2

and by Magnetic Method contain only 3.6% TiO2

According to report from Yoshihiro Kubo and Hitachi Metal co.,

They don't have English pages, Google translate is not very good.

http://www.isij.or.jp/Bukai/Gakujutsu/S ... forumE.htm

or

http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/tatara/nnp0106.htm

[Danocon]

Sorry. Spelling mistake again.

I meant "Zuku-oshi"

 

Used "Akoma Satetsu" collected by gravity method contain 12.5% TiO2

and by Magnetic Method contain only 3.6% TiO2

According to report from Yoshihiro Kubo and Hitachi Metal co.,

They don't have English pages, Google translate is not very good.

http://www.isij.or.jp/Bukai/Gakujutsu/S ... forumE.htm

or

http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/tatara/nnp0106.htm

 

Ha!

I misspelled Oroshigane in my original post. For some reason I always think it should be Orishigane.

Interesting about the different TiO2 content in different collection methods.As I understand it the "Akoma Satetsu" was/is used for the Zuku-Oshi method which uses a tall furnace. And "Masa Satetsu" is used in the kera-oshi method which uses the low furnace or tatara. No idea how they could tell the difference in the two iron sands.

 

Here is a link from Pierre Nadaeu about the Zuku-oshi method. I believe the furnace used is called a Hodo?

 

The result is the very high carbon pig iron that has to be further processed to get usable steel. The Kera-Oshi method eliminates this secondary processing for a part of the kera at least. Tamahagane is a fraction of the kera with pig iron and low carbon iron making up the rest.

[cabowen]

I saw a display once of satetsu taken from streams across Japan. It varied greatly in appearance. I would suspect that that would have something to do with its constituency.

[kunitaro]

Yes, They use to believe that Sama-Satetsu and high temperature (after Tenbin-Fuigo) makes Kera-Oshi method.

but, swordsmith Kubo and Hitachi metal's new experiment found out that it was not right.

They tried Masa-Satetsu collected Kanna-Nagashi method which contained more un-magnetic stuff(incl.Tio2) with Tenbin-fuigo(high temperature). it still could not make Kera-Oshi method.

 

so, The Material by Kanna-Nagashi Method was important....

the un-maginetic material is the key.

 

PS: Morita san corrected me "Akome-Satetsu" not Akoma.

[Danocon]

I saw a display once of satetsu taken from streams across Japan. It varied greatly in appearance. I would suspect that that would have something to do with its constituency.

 

I suppose that would make sense. Just in my short time of collecting the magnetite is markedly different than the hematite from the same mine which is different from the hematite in East Texas which is different from the hematite 20 miles down the road.

 

By long trial and error I am sure they figured out what any given type looked like or even felt like.