NBTHK Papers

[Jean]

This post was triggered by Kunitaro san Hiromasa post:

 

When NBTHK was dishonest in late 50" 60"

 

NBTHK has changed a lot, over more than a half century of existence, the old rating system, when local NBTHK branches were allowed to issue kanteisho has changed for the new system Hozon/TH/Juto/TJuto due to much abuse.

 

I like to issue a warning on these old papers. For your safety, collectors, have your swords, already papered in old NBTHK system, confirmed by going tthrough new shinsa.

 

Some of you may have noticed that on the Commercial websites, more and more you will see on sale double papered blades, old and new system. You know now why.

 

A lot of knowledge has been acquired by NBTHK during the last decades and what was true 30/40 years before may not be anymore nowadays - I have seen quite a lot of old papered blades fail the new rating system.

 

If you want to buy an old papered blade, at your own expense, ask as security to have the blade submitted to new shinsa (at your expenses) the cost is minor compare to the price of the papered blade you are about to buy.

 

In the old system, quite a few blades papered were gimei and, as already seen, some paper were issued by complacency.

 

Reminder: A sayagaki, whoever does it, is not a kanteisho. As already explained By Kunitaro san, even Kunzan and Kanzan sensei have written "convenience" sayagaki.

[paulb]

Hi Jean,

I would like to qualify your comments a little. I believe the lack of reliability in older papers relates to the lower level papers, white green and the later introduced "light green". Not only are some of these unreliable but some have been faked.

I do not believe the same can be said of Juyo papers. There are many who believe the criteria to achieve Juyo staus blades in the 60s were more severe than current (up to the past couple of years which seem to have become more stringent).

I think that the problem arose as you say from local branches issueing papers. As far as I am aware Juyo papers were only ever issued from the HQ.

I can accept that over the past 30 years greater research may result in re-attribution to an alternative smith or even school. However the quality of higher papered swords should be consistant.

 

Best Regards

Paul

[Jean]

Hi Paul,

 

I was not talking about Juyo papers but about ... kicho papers :-) I would not want collectors buying papers, buying the wrong ones :D

 

Perhaps Kunitaro san as an opinion on this matter

[paulb]

Hi Jean,

Yes I was sure you were but thought it should be confirmed/clarified.

best regards

Paul

[Pete Klein]

This all goes for fittings also.

[Jean]

Newbies,

 

When you buy a papered item (Tosogu - thanks Pete for your post - or, Nihonto) for the paper (no shame, as long as it is considered as an insurance coverage and not a profit added value), be sure to chose the right paper, meaning the new NBTHK rating kanteisho, otherwise consider the blade as non papered.

[kunitaro]

I believe that NBTHK Ninteisho System (Kicho TokubetsuKicho Koshu-TokubetsuKicho) was finished at Showa 57 nen 8 gatsu (1982 Aug.).

It was big incident, much more than we can imagine. Most of important kanteika, a lot of smith, polishers, and Politicians and Yakuzas were involved. it was opened discussion at JP Parliament, News was all over Japan.

as soon as NBTHK re-newed to Kanteisho Sytem (Hozon Tokubetsuhozon), most of the collectors and dealers started to apply New Hozon shinsa.

Started from Zero.

 

When the sword gets new Hozon paper, you don't need the old paper anymore.

When the sword doesn't get new Hozon, NBTHK didn't take old paper, they returned with the sword and they kept their archive, so, if you confirm old papers to NBTHK, they still have archive. so, you can confirm the paper at NBTHK, They don't say it is not good anymore. They just confirm the paper is registered..

i think that was for preventing from panicking its market.

 

Maybe the first 10years, most of good sword has got new Hozon or tokubetsuhozon (or Juyo).

Next 10 years were still small chance for people who can really see the sword, or who has special information about it.

After Internet became popular. The swords moved much quicker and more swords on market, non-professional also can deal without responsibility.

myself was busy with papering those days....

 

so, many swords with old paper had sold with dream.

and every time the sword has sold, new owner send it to Shinsa for new paper, when it doesn't get new Hozon, the sword goes back on market with old paper.

or try to get NTHK or Fujishiro paper.

when it still don't get other papers, then it will be for sale with still old papers.....

it has been those situation for while, so we can imagine so many swords has been for Shinsa already many many times.

as we know Yahoo auction in JP had prohibited Swords within a few years, because of so much problems.

maybe last 5 years or so, Old Papers (Kicho,TokubetsuKicho,Koshu-Tokubetsu) are recognized as Certification for fake item, guarantee Not to get Hozon....

so, Nobody buy the sword with old paper in Japan now.

Bidders Auction in Japan also finished by now.

When you see JP sword forum such as "2ch", you can not believe what they are taking about...

I will share those topics sometime from now on... haha.

Most of collectors and All of dealers in Japan know what they are handling.

you can not say "Oh,, I didn't know..." in Japan.

 

Now, new people who are doing eBay auction etc,. they are not really a sword dealers, more like Internet business people who are starting New World wide Internet business.

some of them doesn't even know those fact. doing honest straight trading selling on Auction "as it is".

 

However, i think it is time to tell the truth like Jean san !

To lead us for Fair Play....

 

Best regards

 

PS: I am not saying All of old papers 100% are Bad, but, could be 90% or more...

[Jean]

Thanks a lot for your sharing your experience and insight, Kunitaro san.

[cabowen]

That has been my experience with the older papers as well....No one trusts them anymore....

 

Don't think that Juyo is immune....I was told by several smiths that there has been Juyo awarded to fakes by some famous gendai smiths. Also, if you have seen a few of the Juyo Compton blades, you will scratch your head....no doubt there are others as well. When money and people are involved, bad things happen sometimes....never mind that people simply make mistakes.

[Sam Elliott]

Good day all,

 

First off thank you for bringing up this topic as. As a new collector, I have seen a number of swords with paperwork that might be considered dated, and viewed many of them with a cautionary perspective. And no – I have not purchased any of them

 

Regarding what might be considered a cut off line for papers, would most consider anything papered before 1982 to fall into the category of dated and in need of re-validation? If I am not mistaken this is when the new Shinsa system was incorporated, correct?

 

Regarding NTHK - I am not as clear in terms of what may or may not be considered dated, or for lack of a better phrase, in need of re-submission and re-validation.

 

And what of items papered by Nihon Tosogu Bijutsukan (primarily fittings I believe?) or Toen Sha. Are items papered by these organizations still in good standing? Although I have not as of yet run across fittings (or swords) with this paperwork, which leads me to ask if this was an organization whose dealings were primarily within the confines of Japan?

 

Thanks,

 

Sam

[paulb]

Chris

I agree that where money is involved there are always crooks.

I am assuming that the very high % of fakes Kunitaro san is quoting relates to the current papers in circulation not the level of fakes being issued during the 50s and 60s.

As stated before the NBTHK encouraged people to resubmit swords under the new system. It is reasonable to assume that the majority of these were re-papred successfully. Therefore for those that remain in circulation with an old style paper one has to ask why?

I also note your comments relating to Dr. Comptons collection and these points have been circulating within the community for some time. Again the only way to prove the point is to have the sword in question resubmitted.

However resubmission is not always practical and at the higher level requires time and a relatively high expenditure. I confess to not being wholey unbiased in this having one sword with a high level older paper (issued in 1969) which no-one has expressed any doubts about. I would be reluctant to resubmit without a compelling reason.

[steve0]

If you have a blade with old papers, can you send the NBTHK a copy of them and verify if it has been resubmitted and failed along with confirmation as to why it was?

 

Or is this asking too much of their services?

[paulb]

Hi Steve

I think the likely answer is no they would not be able to do that. I know that if someone loses Juyo or Tokubetsu juyo papers they will issue a substitute document that confirms the blade was papered (not the same as a new cerificate) but I do not think they are able to keep sufficiently detailed archives of previous submissions to offer the service you describe on the lower level papers.

[Jean]

I know for sure sure that the NTHK (Yoshikawa/Gordon Robson organization) validates the mei (or not) if you send him a picture by mail (with a small fee).

 

I am sure someone on the board can provide you his e-mail.

 

Beware that I have seen kodogu failed NBTHK and pass NTHK.....

 

I love simple situation

 

Remember my Yamato blade with 2 sayagaki (Kunzan/Tanobe sensei) to Hosho, coming back from NBTHK with Tegai Kanekiyo ...

[Eric H]

No panic please. Is there really a belief that the majority of the Shinsa appraisers of those times, 1952 - 1982, were criminal individuals...not imaginable. That fraudulent manipulations in a greater extent has occured is proven.

Many sword collectors, first of all those of earlier generation, have „old“ origamis with their swords. But the medal has 2 facets, that is the paper and the sword. If the blade confirmes exactly what the paper attests, i.e. mei and workmanship are in accordance with the makers characteristics, then a white, green or blue paper are enough and a need to send the sword to Japan for new Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon or higher is obsolete.

 

As often said, caution with old papers together with famous names.

 

I know that my „old“ papers are the reliable confirmations of the authenticity of my swords.

 

Eric

[Geraint]

And it seems that Juyo swords are not immune from this sort of thing. Have a look at this article, http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sword_papers.html Towards the bottom of the page some information regarding fake Juyo papers. I get the impression that these are out and out fakes perpetrated by persons who have no connection with the NBTHK but as has already been intimated the love of money is a root of evil..............

[kunitaro]

For Juyo and higher level cetification is not very important to discuss on this board, it is going to be only gosipps.

 

Advanced collectors and dealer should be able to to Judge the swotd by themselves.

If they make mistake or be cheated by depending on the papers, we can laugh at them.

 

This Topic (information) is more for Beginners and normal collectors who want to study and maybe investers.

There is some kind of standard or basic for undertanding quality of the Japanese sword.

Kanteisho/Origami is an opinion by experts, so, you can study their opinion through the item(sword). and those Opinion should be up-dated.

Hozon is issued by passing very basic standard.

Tokubetsu-hozon and Higher papers are for its quality level.

so, we should start from Hozon papers to lean or collect.

[Jean]

I shall add that when you will be advanced collectors, you will be able to judge the level of quality of your mumei or O suriage swords and have them pass Hozon for your kantei confirmation.

 

That's the case for 2 of my swords, my Naoe Shizu and Yamato blade, they are at least TH in quality more probably even higher, but here, the Kanteisho was needed to confirm the schools on O suriage blades.

[kunitaro]

Agree with Jean san above.

 

(osuriage) mumei balde is more for Advanced collector.

unsigned blade must be judge by only quality and condition of the blade.

so, It must be high quality and healthy (not much polished out) to remain original.

 

Quality is meaning the quality of craftsmanship.

you can recognize the school or the smith by its craftsmanship, it is called high quality.

with mumei blade, we can do kantei game with only Juyo blades. It can be good study piece.

 

Low quality mumei is less craftsmanship, less typical activities. sometime activities are mixed with everything....so it can be anything.

such as "Waki-mono" put side from Gokaden. because less identity.

 

so, you can not learn almost anything from Low quality mumei blade even with Hozon paper,

only make you confuse.. will not progress your eye.

 

As Study piece for beginners should be a SIGNED blade with Hozon (so signature is guaranteed),

so, you can study what is what. then you are on right track.

if it is Signed but, Suriage Nakago, you can buy much cheaper than Ubu or katana,

Study one by one with books.

Then start to recognize the sword....

 

I think that is the cheapest and quickest way to reach the basic.

 

You are free only after the basic.

 

What do you think ?

[Markus]

sometime activities are mixed with everything....so it can be anything.

so, you can not learn almost anything from Low quality mumei blade even with Hozon paper

 

I fully agree! That is why it is sometimes hard to understand for beginners why they can´t

learn from the cheapest blades available.

[kunitaro]

Plus.

The Point of having Hozon paper is to Avoid Major faults which makes the sword NO-value. such as Hagire, re-tempered Hamon, no (or fake) hamon, tsugi (welded) nakago etc.

Those major faults are difficult to see by Photo.

when we buy a sword, we should confirm all of those point.

 

However, we can always ASK to the seller "If the item will get Hozon paper?"

especially the item with old paper or other papers, we should ask GUARANTEE the item will get new Hozon paper.

then if it doesn't get new Hozon paper, you will get money back.

 

If all of us doing this, bad papers will disappear in the future.

 

and the swords which has some faults, should get fair judgement and treated with respect as well.

[Sam Elliott]

Not to head off topic - but for those of us newer to the appreciation and collection of Nihonto, here is another fairly helpful link that breaks down various papers.

 

 

http://japansword.art.coocan.jp/Kanteis ... eisho.html

[Curran]

Jean: I have the opposite experience-

NBTHK papered items failing NTHK shinsa. This is not to say rather that the NBTHK is wrong, but that the Yoshikawa NTHK is a little weak knee at papering bigger name items when it is an ex-Japan shinsa.

 

 

As for NBTHK old papers, sure I understand the loss of faith in old papers for swords. I disagree with Peter about fittings. Easiest picking is popping out Wakayama and giving yeah/nee to signatures on items with green papers (Tokubetsu Kicho). So many people are brainwashed into thinking green = bad, that it is easy to pick these items up at a discount. Everyone thinks "why don't they have modern papers" and doubts themselves. Thus green papered ones are sometimes cheaper than non papered.

 

A sale of an _excellent_ old tsuba collection came up a few years ago. All the pieces had old NBTHK green papers. It was a field day while others scratched their head and 'dunno'ed the old green papers. Eventually some of the big name Japanese collectors got in on it, but the first round or two was a collector's dream. The few pieces I pulled out of that sale all went on to paper *better* than their prior green papers. As someone stated, the NBTHK's knowledge level has increased. At the very least, items once papered "Higo" often come back "Hayashi", "Jingo" and "Nishigaki". Kinko pieces often do better than their old vague attributions. With some study, a fair number of times "school attributed" pieces can be spotted that come back with specific attributions on new NBTHK papers.

 

Fittings with green papers = good place to look for bargains.