Tokyo Nihonto Dealers

[Curran]

At Sunday's New York Metro Token Club meeting, the Japanese sensei talked to me about having just heard from several friends that a group of Tokyo sword dealers were caught colluding and faking papers/signatures. The gist was that the police were after the gentlemen, at least 5 were now bankrupt, and to expect many sword values to take a hit soon as a few store full of sword come onto the market unless the remaining dealers buy them up like DeBeers.

 

The Japanese gent responsible for this is a good teacher and long time member, but has sometimes delivered some shock-jock whoppers where reality is a supposed mountain out-of-a-molehill of truth.

 

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Anyone else heard or read anything and care to comment? Any current Nihonto Dealer scandal of merit in Tokyo?

 

The half joke was that mumei Juyo Inchimonji were going to suddenly be even more plentiful.

BS, or a grain of truth here? If so, it might make for an interesting Dai Token Ichi.

[cabowen]

5 or 6 dealers might mean 1000 swords....considering there are literally millions, I doubt, if true, it will have much of an effect long term....

[Curran]

And Lehman was just one company....

 

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Just was curious. I doubt the fact is remotely as large as that implied.

The source was unusual and much more credible than those usually dickering over NBTHK and NTHK issues.

[raiden]

Oh boy, why is there always room for misinformation.....

4 dealers went bankrupt this past few months due to one of them running away owing others money. 1 bad dealer (who shall be nameless) is getting investigated for swords that were illegally registered. Those blades are being tracked down as we speak. Also one can tell what these blades are if one has a good eye. That is why it really pays to deal with the reputable dealers, I have had to fix many situations of people that have dealt with dealers that did not have a stellar reputation. Basically all you have to do is ask to find the good guys (and there are some that are very nice!). Myself and a few others know the people that are reputable in Japan very well. I always say it is always safer to ask first, then decide.

If any guys need help at the show in Japan, I will be there as well as a few others that speak english to help the foreigners.

Mike

[raiden]

Oh, and as far as anyone knows, there were no fake shinsa papers made on any of these blades from any group - NBTHK, NTHK , NTHK npo etc....

there are always bad apples around, you just have to choose the good ones.

[Curran]

As I hope I made clear, I was trying to find the credible part in the story.

What Mike says makes more sense in fitting with the Japenglish version swapped with me.

 

Sounds like it isn't nearly as current as I was told. Old news finally reaching my far end of the grapevine.

 

 

Endnote: Mike.... awesome Hirata f/k that you sold to a club member. It was great to see that Sunday. The kashira was *much* more educational to study under magnification in person rather than just look at in a book.

[raiden]

I just bought another hikozo.....and yes the news is old already

[Curran]

The hell you say,

about the Hizoko that is....

 

Totally off the original topic, but either tease us with a photo or PM/email one privately. Please!

[raiden]

soon, I am waiting for it on final approval.will list pics if everything is ok.

[Brian]

Also one can tell what these blades are if one has a good eye...

Mike,

Reading between the lines...do you mean there are blades coming onto the market that are:

a) Not of Japanese origin, coming into Japan and being passed off as Japanese and being registered there or..

b) Gunto/Gendaito being passed off and maybe signed as earlier swords or..

c) Higher level fraudulently altered swords to make them look like bigger names or..

c) Other?

 

Brian

[raiden]

As far as I know, Japanese law denotes that a tosho can only make and legally register 2 katana a month (I believe 3 wakizashi or tanto is the other option). Lower level smiths have a hard time making a living because of this rule and because their blades do not command the large sums that the higher level smiths can achieve. Ok that said, it is not good when someone falls off the path of right.....(bear with me now, I am making chocolate chip pancakes for my kids in between writing here)

lets also say that if there was a blade signed "Kiyomaro", and was 30" long and (it doesn't have to be genuine) with a legit torokusho....

then someone makes a blade signed falsely "Kiyomaro", similiar shape, same dimensions roughly.....and this sword now appears with the legit torokusho (registration card), it doesn't have or will ever get a kanteisho from a educated group that can recognize a shinsakuto, but the bad dealer doesn't need a kanteisho, he just sells it on ebay or yahoo or bidders as a "fresh' blade to those that are looking for the hidden treasure in an online auction.......we know this happens all the time, guys looking for the great deal on ebay.

However, from this source ( the bad dealer) the blades are being tracked down and recovered for evidence, as well as the tosho who made them.

As I had stated before, all one has to do is just ask someone knowledgable or post a link to the item in question on the board for opinion. Or just buy certified blades from a well recognized source, or even better, just study as i do, I study shinsakuto all the time and appreciate them for their excellent workmanship.This goes for older blades as well of course. By doing so, you will come to recognize the differences very clearly if you have a good eye! Like I said, don't let a few bad apples ruin your collecting, there are plenty of good legit resources out there.

[cabowen]

So what happens to the 30" Kiyomaro with the legit torokusho that is now with the fake Kiyomaro copy?

[raiden]

From what I heard, the bad dealer re-registers the blade as a sword that lost its original torokusho. Of this I am not sure, but it kind of makes sense. Many of these blades, one or the other were seemingly exported and sold on ebay for example in the US. As I stated earlier, they have been back tracking the blades from the registrations done by the dealer and have been getting everything straightened out. It seems that there weren't too many so far.

[cabowen]

I guess saying the torokusho was lost would work, maybe once but I would think they would catch on quickly to that game. What I have seen happen is that swords are sold overseas and sent out of Japan without turning in the torokusho. Then they have the torokusho and no sword....They check the mail pretty carefully and while one might get away with that from time to time, they will get caught. I sent out 2 or 3 swords before I even knew you were suppose to turn the torokusho in. The forth one caused a near meltdown when they called me from customs and told me that was not the way it was done....After that, I made sure to follow the rules.