bmoore1322 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Okay, here is another one for viewing, the only problem i see wrong with it that it might have an fatal flaw on the Boshi, other then that it has an new polish, great Hamon, and clearly shows plenty of Hada, and the Shirasaya is new also. From what i can see, the flaw in the Boshi might have came through on the last polish on the blade, and the Nakago is not signed. I think its an great Wakizashi from the Edo period, and great condition. Great two piece Habaki. I believe the Hamon type is called Suguha, straight edge type Hamon. Brian
sanjuro Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 I tend toward the opinion that nothing, absolutely nothing, from the Edo period with a fatal flaw can be considered "In great condition"! The kissaki appears to have been reworked at some time because the geometry of the boshi is wrong, or at least so it appears in the photographs provided. The hamon seems to run out just forward of the yokote. It appears that what once was a chu kissaki has been reshaped to a ko kissaki and the ko shinogi has not been corrected. The hada is also a little rough for a shin shinto blade of any real quality. It may have once been a nice blade however and is suffering from damage repair. Just my opinion........ :D
bmoore1322 Posted September 25, 2012 Author Report Posted September 25, 2012 C'mon Chris it is not that bad, you are implying that there is not one there, and it is plain as day to see. Yes, I said already there is a flaw with the Boshi, I never said there wasn't. The Hada is not bad at all, I can see it plain as day, and not open like some I have seen on other swords people in here seem to praise. The Nakago is really nice, as well as the habaki. Brian
sanjuro Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Brian. A little clarification here if you can open your mind to it. The fatal flaw you can see in the kissaki coincides with the edge of the yakiba as it runs off the edge just forward of the yokote. (Bear in mind that the photographs are all we have to judge by). Ergo there is no boshi, since it has been ground off or broken at some point. (Unintentional pun..... sorry ) Forget about the silly habaki for pete's sake, you can have one made if its missing and the blade is worth it. At the moment, in this case the habaki is probably worth more than the blade. What Chris and I are saying in as polite a way as possible is that this is a rubbish blade dressed up in a new shirasaya and with a decent quality habaki.
cabowen Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 It looks like the yakiba runs right off the edge in the kissaki. That is a fatal flaw. No matter how nice the rest of the blade may be (and I see little in the rest of this blade that is anything but pedestrian) it is basically worthless (or almost worthless) as a collectible blade. I see nothing nice about the nakago, it is pretty average as well. I don't mean to be harsh, just grow a bit weary of seeing these things described as "nice"....
bmoore1322 Posted September 25, 2012 Author Report Posted September 25, 2012 Okay, here is what I think has happened to this blade, it has recieved its last and final polish, I think it has been over polished, or been polished so much that it is getting down to where it cannot take another polish. The Boshi on it has had the Hamon polished away, and since the hamon on it is Suguha, and just straight. That's what i think has happened to this blade, and I understand what you mean. I would say nice, I would not say crappy, disgusting, horrible to look at, the worse blade i have even seen, none of those apply to this blade. And i would say any Nihonto, in good polish, and with the habaki, and in full shirasaya would be something not to just throw away, as you are implying. I guess someone saw something in it, to have the Shirasaya made for it, as I know they are not cheap to have made. Brian
sanjuro Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 OK... I give up! You can lead a horse to water but the damn thing may still die of thirst apparently. :? Brian. Take a look at the Sue Mihara Tomo wakizashi just listed for sale. Then tell me that this wak of yours stacks up against it.
bmoore1322 Posted September 25, 2012 Author Report Posted September 25, 2012 No, dont get me wrong, I hear what you are saying, i read some where that a blade polished too much could have some of these effects, and I know that the flaw on the Boshi could be a fatal flaw ( HAGIRE ). But, this to me could be a learning blade, as it was so cheap that i could not pass it up. Brian
cabowen Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 I guess someone saw something in it,... Brian Yeah, the opportunity for profit by snagging someone without the knowledge to know better....
bmoore1322 Posted September 25, 2012 Author Report Posted September 25, 2012 @ Chris I did notice the Boshi, and the problem with it, you act like I just started yesterday, and have no idea what Im looking at. I saw that the Boshi might contain an HAGIRE ( fatal flaw ), but can a person learn from a blade with flaws like this, if the blade is cheap enough. It's a true Nihonto from the Edo period, and I hate to see it just go into the trash like some people would do. It was only 300.00 Brian
cabowen Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Learn what? We learn what quality is and what to look for by looking at good blades. Bad blades hurt the eyes. I'm sorry, but when you post things like this and call them nice, you give the impression that you did just start collecting yesterday. Personally, I wouldn't buy something like this if it was offered to me for $1.00. If you like it, that's fine, just don't tell me it's nice and expect me to agree.
bmoore1322 Posted September 25, 2012 Author Report Posted September 25, 2012 I never expected you to agree with anything I say or post, you never do, even when I posted fully polished, and papered swords, you still had nothing nice to say about them. So why would I expect for you to now. Brian
Brian Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 I constantly get pm's and emails about us being nicer to beginners and scaring ppl off this hobby. Perhaps I will just refer them to this case, and see if they still agree. For how long do we have to be diplomatic and steer around the issues? Brian...every time you look like you are making progress, you take a giant step backwards. The key points here are: 1) You desperately need to learn what a good hada is. No..that doesn't mean one is showing..or someone with some fingerstones has gone over the ji...or acid has been used to open the grain. It means a good hada. Can't even explain that clearly without you seeing it in hand. Just seeing a hada doesn't make it a good one. 2) You desperately need to see what "in full polish" means. No..it doesn't mean an amateur has brought out the hamon and hada. It means a trained Japanese or equivalent polisher has given the blade a full polish. I have seen you say a few times that almost all of your blades are in full polish. Umm..no. They really aren't. They might have had a quick "commercial going over" in Japan for sale purposes..but they aren't in full polish. 3) This blade is a write off. Even without the fatal flaw/s, it is just another ho-hum blade without a good sugata, and no wow-factor. This isn't about price. You aren't out there to save every $300 artifact. This is about collecting and studying art swords. Feel free to buy every $300 sword you can find..that is your perogative. But posting them here and expecting good comments is kinda pointless. Collect what you like. We can't tell you what to collect. But don't argue every time when we don't see it your way. 4) The boshi is a hamon inside the kissaki. You are meaning kissaki most times you refer to boshi. This sword doesn't appear to have a boshi. That isn't from over polishing. That means it was broken and/or reshaped. No hamon in the kissaki = fatal flaw = not collectible. The possible hagire is therefore a moot point. 5) The Japanese dealers who sell these are in the industry. That means they get a quick shirasaya made cheap. Same with habaki. This is done purely to sell swords to Westerners who haven't learned better yet. 6) You seem to think that papers are a mark of quality. Papers just indicate a sword is genuine. Most old wakizashi without too much merit will get papers as long as there are no fatal flaws, and the signature is genuine or it has none. Just having entry level papers isn't a sign of quality. 7) The yokote line in the top kissaki pic is just ludicrous. The person who did that has no concept of the geometry of a kissaki. What angle is that anyways? People have tried to advise you and assist you. But you come back with answers to every concern, based on theories you construct as you go along. At some point all of these people just going to ignore your posts and stop trying to help. When are you going to make it to that show and see what good swords/polish/hada/hamon look like? Brian
bmoore1322 Posted September 25, 2012 Author Report Posted September 25, 2012 @ Brian Yes i do listen to them, but I wanted a sword that I knew had some problems, and was not going to pay too much, I posted that the Boshi did have a fatal flaw, i personally do like the looks of the polish on this blade. I have learned a lot in here, but i will still buy certain items that catch my eye, i can learn from this blade, if i don't know what to look out for in a bad blade, or a blade that had flaws, how else should i learn , as there are no shows in my area for me to attend, I have plans for this weekend to be down at the Museum exhibit in Kentucky, and look at the swords on display. I have bought some nice blades from some very well known collectors, and other members in here, I do own some beautiful polished, papered swords now, and the only Shows Era swords i own are Kanezane, as i have sold off the rest of them. I don't consider buying this sword to be a mistake, I can only learn so much from a book, and i need to have a blade in my hands for viewing to learn from it, don't you agree ? It was cheap enough that I can learn from it, as I have from my other swords as well. Brian
Jorgensen Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Brian, I guess you bought this sword from Daimyo54web on ebay, right? It looks like one of his "works". Sorry to say, but I have often seen "mass-produced polishing" blades from him. Bad, quick polishes/shirasaya/habaki, just meant to be able to take some pictures that has hada and hamon to quickly sell "junk" blades, that otherwise would not interest anybody. Often I have been looking on ebay, and I tell everytime if a blade is from this seller, just by looking at the pictures! always same style of (bad) polish, colors, angles etc. And I would NEVER buy any of his blades (but sometimes he has some small stuff and spare parts that can useable). Its ok that you do buy blades from him and I will respect that, I am telling you my oppinion and why I never would. I am just trying to be constructive with you. In other words, I am happy you did not pay more than 300 usd, but sorry to say, its not even worth the 300 usd! People here are just trying to have you spend your money better and explain you why. If a guy next to you is going to buy a car, that you know is crap under the hood, would'nt you tell him what you know and say... "hey, I know that car is crap, use your money on another/better car instead" and help the guy not throwing away his money?? -We are trying to do the same, just with swords. Please have in mind.
nagamaki - Franco Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 ANOTHER WAKIZASHI FOR VIEWING. Hey, how about that, congratulations, Brian, that's right, look, but don't buy junk, you're finally learning.
nagamaki - Franco Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 I don't consider buying this sword to be a mistake Hey, what the hell happened?
bmoore1322 Posted September 25, 2012 Author Report Posted September 25, 2012 Yes, I did buy that blade from him, and for the price I paid I'm not worried about it, I understand what people say, but there was something about it, that attracted it to me, I saw the Boshi had some issues, and to be honest i was not too worried about it. I will be happy with it. I'm still looking for an elusive sword that a couple people told me about that KaneZane did make a some very limited Wakizashi's, or tanto's before he started making war times blade's. That I would love to own. Brian
sanjuro Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 What you should be learning from this sword is not to buy any more cheap rubbish! There is nothing other than this that this particular blade can teach you. You don't learn about good swords by owning, studying or trying to save bad examples. If what you have as reference blades are the ones you have shown on this forum, then you still have a long way to go, despite the fact that a couple of them are reasonable examples. Unless you hear what is being said to you without trying to justify with your own faulted logic, your own novice view against every legitimate criticism made, then you have a very expensive education in your future. Its your money however, and you can waste it any way you see fit. Here's a general principle for you and then I wont bother commenting on this any further. "GOOD SWORDS AREN'T CHEAP AND CHEAP SWORDS AREN'T GOOD". This hold true no matter how you may personally rationalise your choice of blade to purchase.
Tcat Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Hi Brian M, Looks like this blade could have two fatal flaws in the kissaki area alone. The first is the Ha-Gire (means a break or crack in the 'ha', 'ha' meaning edge), and there also appears to be Nioi-Gire (in this case nioi referring to the hardened hamon area, the phrase meaning a break in the hamon or hardened crystalline edge). In this sword the hamon appears to run off the blade around the oddly positioned yokote. Because there is 'nioi-gire' here, there is no boshi. Boshi refers to the integral tempered area inside the kissaki, since the temperline runs off the blade at that point, there is no tempering in the kissaki, and thus there is no boshi. As Brian stated, it is important to remember that although it makes sense logically, one cannot rely on the presence of a decent habaki and shirasaya to judge a blade - these may be indicators of a decent blade but they can also be made quickly (or sourced second hand, contrary to popular belief, not all habaki were made for the swords on which they currently sit..! and even shirasaya can be modified to fit other blades). These are essentially 'props' used for the purpose of SELLING otherwise dud blades. I know it sounds bad but it will do you good in the long run to be extremely wary of all sellers (who are not personally known to you), but especially those on Ebay. Treat the Ebay folk and their wares to the same discerning eye you unfairly reserve solely for used car salesmen. You MUST be at least an accomplished novice collector before you start to play around on ebay snaffling up every sub $1000 blade you see expecting not to get burned. If you do not, 95% of your purchases will be sub-par blades and you will only recoup your losses getting lucky and selling to misguided and ignorant parties. Would you take your car expert friend to a used car sale then ignore every piece of advice he gave you? Please read http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/kizu.htm Afterwards, please read that whole website. Familiarize yourself with the canonical knowledge regarding Nihonto. I can not understand how you can be so interested in Nihonto and yet simultaneously be so opposed to the uptake of any information the people here offer you. (Are you just trolling?? ) That said...each to his own - but when you hold a true, properly polished Nihonto masterpiece in your hand you wont look back!
Brian Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Brian, We cannot tell you what to buy, we can only advise you. If you know all the disadvantages of this blade, and still want it..then by all means use your own hard-earned money and buy it. You are free to use your cash as you see fit, just as much as we can try and guide you down a path we feel is beneficial. My main point here is that if you buy a sword like this, and are aware of the flaws or know that it was a few hundred $'s only..and it came from eBay..then don't post it here and ask for opinions. There is nothing for the rest of us to gain from seeing these besides frustration, and nothing to show beginners in this hobby that hasn't been pointed out 1000 times. Please don't post these expecting anything less than you got here. That just smacks of "treasure hunting" or otherwise of a touch of masochism? Brian
Jacques D. Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Hi, Next week (or so), the same things will be said to the same guy. it becomes tedious.
kunitaro Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Good morning. The blade has no boshi which is meaning No hamon of Kissaki. Kissaki is soft, you can not stab. it doesn't functional as weapon anymore. the value as a weapon is zero. And, Kissaki is the most important parts of the sword. also most difficult part of Yakiire. you can see skill of the smith and his character at boshi. It is like face of the sword. so, we are looking at Dead body without head. the value as an art object is zero. When we see Nakago. Omote side. you can see darker, blackish parts Ha-side and under parts. That is burned rust. which is meaning is that the blade was in fire in the past. as you see small crack at mune of nakago. Nakago should not have any Ware or crack, because, Nakago has never Yakiire, no chance of cracking. so, if you see ware or crack, you should think of Saiba (re-tempered). There is many many many blades on market (especially on eBay and other Auction) which we call " It was Nihonto" watch out !
Brian Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 so, we are looking at Dead body without head. Kunitaro san, Thank you for that description...it is perfect. Brian
almeister Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Good Information & good pick up Kunitaro San ! The crack approx 1 inch above the mekugi ana on the mune & consistent on both sides of nakago - Yeah ? With blade in hand - there may be other cracks also evident . Nevertheless good piece to teach newbies of what to look out for ! Cheers , Alan
steve0 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Brian Sadly I do enjoy reading your posts but for all the wrong reasons, I really wish you would listen to the guys on here as most of them are real world subject matter experts when it comes to Nihonto, unlike us who do not even qualify as novice yet. Slow it down and start reading, being told to get stuck into the books was the best piece of advice I have taken on the Nihonto topic. Try and remember that your mind is a parachute, it works best when its open. Steve
Art Torano Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Brian, I made many of the mistakes you did in the begining of becoming a collector of Nihonto. I will not repeat what everyone else has tried to tell you. I can buy what ever sword I like, money is not an issue. But what has happened over time is I buy less swords, may one or two a year. To see someone go out and spend good money on a bunch of swords like the one you just bought and many of the ones I have seen you post is disturbing to many of us. Here are guys that have spent thier years collecting and studying the Japanese sword and you seem to not want to hear what they tell you and then you continue to post purchases like this Wak. It seems that you really don't value what you can learn here. BTW, that $300 could have been better spent on a nice set of menuki or F/K. Art Torano
Ted Tenold Posted September 25, 2012 Report Posted September 25, 2012 Brian, You're buying things on emotion and rationalizing your purchase to yourself with flawed logic. All the posts you've put up on this piece (and others before it) read more like you're trying to convince yourself rather than others. So don't get angry when folks don't like what you buy. It's not their obligation to like it, so post at your own risk. Perhaps it had sentimental value to someone in the past which would explain efforts to polish and put it in shirasaya. But sentimental value equates to a value added factor of ZERO when marked to market. Although others have contracted Nihonto fever and recovered completely, it's your disease now; take your medicine as directed.
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