cabowen Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 I saw that sword about 15 years ago and it made me sad to see the talent that Yoshichika had and that he made mostly those cookie cutter, mass-produced, featureless gunto we see so often.
sanjuro Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 Also chiming in here a little late, but a comment by FBJ concerning Nakamura's attitude to iaido rather bothers me. I was prompted to comment here only because this is closer to the original poster's question concerning tameshigiri. What's more, he almost completely dismisses the clear and obvious link between kendo and iaido. For anyone with even moderate experience in either, not seeing the similarities and encouraging study in both for the most comprehensive education in Japanese swordsmanship demonstrates that one's sentiments extend past their odd logic. Only in the West where we have only an incomplete appreciation of Japanese swordsmanship, is there such an obvious link between Kendo and Iaido. This has been promoted by the sieta gata techniques of the Kendo Federation. Iaido in the the various ryu that teach it as part of swordsmanship, is a discipline, a Do or way. Kendo is a SPORT, stylised from true traditional Japanese Kendo and watered down to be safe in practice. In reality, Kenjutsu is more closely aligned with iaido since what follows after the initial draw and cut in iaido kata is clearly kenjutsu rather than the stylised 'hitting' (rather than cutting) that Kendoka employ in their sport. I dont wish to start an argument about definitions in martial arts, but lets deal with facts rather than misapprehensions. See... I put a smiley at the end so no one gets offended. Its hard to argue with a guy thats smiling at you. :D
Baka Gaijin Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 Morning all, This one's regarding a source of fresh bamboo in Europe. Edited: dead link to Huffington post It would appear that somewhere in the Amsterdam area is an importer or source of green Bamboo. Cheers
Ian Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 This one's regarding a source of fresh bamboo in Europe. I can't get the link to work
Baka Gaijin Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 Drat me neither now :x Anyway, the article was from 2011 and concerned the importation into UK of supplies of fresh green bamboo for the Pandas at Edinburgh Zoo. The Bamboo was being imported from a supplier in Amsterdam via Rotterdam on a regular basis to ensure freshness. So by reverse logic perhaps an email to Edinburgh Zoo to ask where they get their bamboo supplies from? Just a thought. Cheers
Ian Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 Found it http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-eat.html Many thanks
george trotter Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 Just referring back to the query about growing bamboo in Europe/UK. I remember that in the yard of the house I lived at in Lymington, Hampshire c.1972 was a huge grove of (I think) cane...but might have been bamboo. This stuff was everywhere. I don't know how long it had been there, but it would have taken a mechanical digger to get it out as the root systems were so huge....so, it will grow in the UK, but be careful what you wish for...impossible to control once it escapes its garden bed. Here in Australia it grows well...but again, too well...very difficult to control once it escapes. Regards,
Ted Tenold Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 George is correct. Be careful with bamboo. I grew several types in my backyard when I lived in California. Bamboo has hundreds of different types but there are two basic type of root systems; running and clumping. Although both will effectively spread via rhizomes, the "running" is the nightmarish invasive type that is associated with taking over everything, lifting foundations, etc.. The clumping types just take a great deal longer and are easier to control by hand. Both can be limited in their spread by containering them underground to hinder rhizomes from running out, but need to be heavy walled, deep, with a rim that stands proud of the soil surface, and plants still well maintained. Once planted, it takes a while to get started, but once it does, it can grow at an amazing rate. If you're not a commited gardener, be ready to become one. If you don't want to be one, be prepared to become a neighborhood pariah to all those around you.
sanjuro Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 Caveat Emptor! like George says, Be careful what you wish for! The Japanese bamboo used for tameshigiri is green bamboo. Native to Japan and China and I think also Korea. Its the running variety and is almost impossible to get rid of once it takes hold in open ground. It loves rocky soil. The runners can lie about two to four feet down and will break into solid concrete given time. Not bad for grass! (even a super grass). :D
kunitaro Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 Yes ! That is why Fresh bamboo is free in Japan Most of famers (in JP) are happy if you can cut and take them out by yourself. Is it possible to grow the green bamboo which 5 cm + diameter in Europe ? (i think so) more Bamboo, more easy to master cutting ! Please grow !! using Old(used) Tatamiomote as cutting Target is a part of re-cycling system in Japan. using new material for just cutting is a bit hesitation, not only the cost. sometime we have no choice...
george trotter Posted October 31, 2012 Report Posted October 31, 2012 just another point (curse this wondering mind of mine! ) but it occurs to me that as this thread is about using your nihonto for tameshigiri (rather than purpose made iaito in "half-polish"), wouldn't cutting tatamiomote tend to scratch your finer nihonto polish? I am assuming that as tatamiomote is "used" tatami, it would be inclined to contain small particles of grit/dust/etc?..I mean, even though the Japanese take off their shoes entering the house, it stands to reason that airborne or human carried grit/dust particles from outside will impregnate the tatami over time and be a bit abrasive to a blade?...just wondering.
kunitaro Posted October 31, 2012 Report Posted October 31, 2012 That is one reason to use Modern blade (traditionally made) for Tameshigiri. Especially for beginnrs, so you can make mistake, repair, re-polish again and again. Art polish ( to see Hataraki of Jitetsu and Hamon ) in Shirasaya is the stage of resting or retirement for the sword.
cabowen Posted October 31, 2012 Report Posted October 31, 2012 Yes George, that is correct. There is dirt in used goza that can scratch blades. Sometimes there is also staples that weren't removed that can chip blades. I have been told that there is a lot of silica in bamboo and in tatami too. That can also abrade a blade over time and leave marks.
FBJ Posted November 21, 2012 Report Posted November 21, 2012 Only in the West where we have only an incomplete appreciation of Japanese swordsmanship, is there such an obvious link between Kendo and Iaido. Just wow. Just about every Japanese teacher of notable rank in the AJKF opine that kendo and iaido are almost inseparable in that when practiced together, they compliment one another in solidifying understanding of distance, timing and pressuring an opponent. You disagree because I suspect you fall into the category of practitioner with a koryu-centric superiority complex, content in the thought that you're apart from the big, monolithic federations who teach "watered down" kendo and iaido and by extension are dismissed by those like you who are convinced their arts are older, better and more authentic. If anything, it's that attitude that I find to be prevalent in the west and to me it smacks of the holier-than-though extremism often borne of those that were once part of larger federations, but for whatever reason -- be it failure or some other factor that limits their progress -- seek instruction in the various dispirate, koryu only dojo that sprinkle the budo landscape. It's okay Keith, saying "iaiDO" won't harm anyone. "KenDO", same deal. You mention you once practiced kendo. Why did you quit? Obligatory smiley:
kusunokimasahige Posted November 21, 2012 Report Posted November 21, 2012 You can say that one learns a lot about swordmanship whether one practices Iaido, Kendo or any Koryu style, but nothing beats a sparring match with bokuto, including bruises and more. Because that, apart from Kendo, is the only way you learn how to really fight with a sword. And by that I mean that with Koryu styles and Iai styles you learn how to use a blade technically in various theoretical situations (Kata) and how to cut through materials by training in tameshi giri, but with Kendo as well as simple sparring with bokuto you learn fast agile and highly concentrated ways to parry and attack in a more realistic situation. If for instance Katori Shinto Ryu has real and fast fights with bokuto as well as other weapons like yari and naginata in which the learned moves are used while you face the chance to get hurt properly I do not know. KM
Jiro49 Posted November 21, 2012 Report Posted November 21, 2012 Sorry I have to chime in... Once there are rules in place it now becomes a sport. Does one improve their skill in karate by sparring in point matches where only certain targets and techiques are allowed or is it through true kumite that we learn? Plus the body positions are different in Kendo and koryu iaijutsu, most obvious would be the distance the back heel is off the ground. Its like looking at a karateka and a thai kick boxer.. -----> :D
FBJ Posted November 21, 2012 Report Posted November 21, 2012 Sorry I have to chime in... Once there are rules in place it now becomes a sport. Nonsense. It's rather once there are rules in place, I can't do what I want. And therein lies the basis for why many disillusioned former kendoka and iaidoka quit the federation, adopt their one-sided snobbery and project their inadequacies on those that remain in the various federations. At its heart, it's often a matter of crushed expectations and fractured ego complexes. It's an odd and rather irritating phenomenon, but the bulk of people with that attitude appear to populate koryu-only dojos, mortally afraid to utter any Japanese word ending in "DO". I see it all the time.
Jiro49 Posted November 21, 2012 Report Posted November 21, 2012 I can't say I fall into that category since I practice toyama ryu batto do plus koryu arts. I understand what your saying but you also have the other end of the spectrum where people think its stupid to use the word sensei in the west and the only purpose it serves is to feed the instructors ego. Luckily we can each choose our own paths..
FBJ Posted November 21, 2012 Report Posted November 21, 2012 I can't say I fall into that category since I practice toyama ryu batto do plus koryu arts. You're just as maligned by the snobs as I am, me being a iaido practictioner in an AJKF-affiliated federation. There are some that wouldn't even give Toyama-ryu a second thought in terms of being what they'd consider a Japanese budo with real history simply because it's post-restoration. Dumb as hell, yes. The attribution of some oddball mysticism that somehow overridingly legitimizes a school of swordsmanship simply because it was invented before the samurai class was abolished is a cancerous attitude that I see with increasing frequency. I understand what your saying but you also have the other end of the spectrum where people think its stupid to use the word sensei in the west and the only purpose it serves is to feed the instructors ego. For sure, but even then it's likely the fraud artists with fabricated histories that would insist on others calling them 'sensei' because, yes, it is about ego. Ah well. I'm not aware of anyone with any real experience insisting that anyone refer to them as sensei. In fact, being a iaido instructor myself, I've had new students ask me what I'd like them to call me. I have to tell them that it isn't up to me to decide that, but at the very minimum call me by my given name.
Jiro49 Posted November 21, 2012 Report Posted November 21, 2012 I can't say I agree 100% regarding the ego comment. I'm sure for some it is, but as a student I feel it is a sign of respect for your teacher and for where the art came. I have met many types of budo snobs...For myself the worst is nihon budoka who think Chinese martial arts are all soft and have no combat merit. I started in hsing-I and shaolin 5 animals so when entering the Japanese side of things I heard it all.. In a nutshell, I feel your pain!
FBJ Posted November 21, 2012 Report Posted November 21, 2012 I can't say I agree 100% regarding the ego comment. I'm sure for some it is, but as a student I feel it is a sign of respect for your teacher and for where the art came. Yes of course, but I was referring to those that instructors insist their students call them 'sensei'. To me its something that should be left to others to decide if they wish to call you that. Some of my students call me "sensei", some call me "sempai", while the vast majority assign no titles to me and instead refer to me as "Mike" and I willingly play no part in influencing which of those they choose. Makes no difference to me.
Ken-Hawaii Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 Yes of course, but I was referring to those that instructors insist their students call them 'sensei'. To me its something that should be left to others to decide if they wish to call you that. Obviously few of you have a Japanese sensei if you're making comments like this. Although I'm advanced yudansha in MJER & kodansha in several other martial arts, I have yet to find a Japanese sensei who doesn't expect me to address him/her as "Sensei," & I have no problem with that at all. It's as much a matter of culture as anything else. I've taught judo for over 45 years - master classes these days - & honestly have not found anyone who doesn't address me as "sensei," but I also wouldn't take offense if a student didn't choose to do so, as long as he/she was polite about it. Ken
sanjuro Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 FBJ I come late back to this thread yet again in order to answer a question you asked. Why did I quit kendo? Actually I didn't. Kendo means the way of the sword and I have always followed it. I stopped practicing kendo the sport because apart from the physical exercise it bears little resemblance to the use of a nihonto. I sought to practice swordsmanship in a more traditional sense and yes, I suppose I have a koryu eccentric view of swordsmanship. Its not however holier than thou at all, nor is it elitist. Nor is it as you suggest any result of failure. It is more a desire for the traditional forms rather than the watered-down 'sportified' forms of the art promoted by the AJKF. A feature of the Japanese sword is its curvature. That curvature has a practical application which one cannot employ using a straight composite bamboo facsimile, to whit the shinai. A bokuto on the other hand being curved expands the use of the surrogate sword in a more accurate way and also makes possible some attacks and defences which are not replicable with a straight weapon. I practice kenjutsu and iaijutsu as well as tameshigiri. But whether it is a 'jutsu' or a 'do' form is not the issue here. Whilst the ryu I am part of is hardly of importance, KM mentioned that in the ryu whose teachings I follow, (the TSKSR), bokuto are used in sparring and yes, you can get hurt because basically there are no rules in kumitae and you can spar against weapons other than the sword such as naginata and yari, which I personally find more in tune with the reality of traditional swordsmanship. There is room in this world for all views practices and preferences, be it 'do' or 'jutsu'. Our inputs therefore are equally valid within the spheres of our individual experience. I see no point in a belligerent or antagonistic attitude toward someone because he chooses to follow 'the way' in a fashion that favours a method other than yours, or mine for that matter. Many are the paths that can lead to enlightenment. Obligatory smiley
FBJ Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 I see no point in a belligerent or antagonistic attitude toward someone because he chooses to follow 'the way' in a fashion that favours a method other than yours, or mine for that matter. I can appreciate all points of view, but the main reason for my response was that I felt your response was pretty damn condescending, as if because I'm a westerner that I somehow automatically have an incomplete or incorrect view of the relationship between the arts. Nevermind that I've spent the better part of the last eleven years practicing my art and thinking about how iaido and kendo are similar. What's more, you then proceed to disparage -- as most not in the federation tend do -- the merits and usefuless of seitei iaido and kendo as "watered down" facsimiles of what you consider more authentic budo, choosing to make your counterpoint with bold type and capital letters. I've heard all manner of rationalizations from non-federation types about our curriculum, the manner in which we conduct our examinations and taikai, and often it comes from folks who's moral horse is so high that instead of falling in line with the rest of folks in the organization, they avoid examinations, and competitions on account that these things somehow don't fit the spirit of some ultimate budo they have in mind, then in the end they run off to find organizations that often share what I'd consider their extremist points of view. Obligatory smiley..
Hans Kondor Posted November 22, 2012 Author Report Posted November 22, 2012 I haven't thought that there will be 144 replies and nearly 4500 views of this thread, but only 1-2 guys shared with us their habit. I see there are lot of collectors here who also train Japanese sword martial arts, I guess only few has a shinsakuto like Kunitaro san has for cutting practise. So what do you use? Cheaper no maker marked Nihonto, Chinese blades, western swordsmits products? Pictures would be welcome too!
sanjuro Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 FBJ I think me having stated my view and you having stated yours then we should leave it at that, lest any further discourse between us on this topic result in the closure of this thread. Allow me only this: In your defence of the AJKF and your remarks in criticism of the koryu you (inadvertantly I'm sure) cast aspersions upon the very foundation of the AJKF whose founding members were without exception all trained and held high rank in various koryu styles. Perhaps you should be mindful from whence the federation derives its martial origins. Obligatory smiley:
John A Stuart Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 Hans, I use a sword made to order for me by Howard Clark 大耳 Traditionally made from modern steels. At the time it still cost me over $5000 John
kusunokimasahige Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 To lighten up the atmosphere between the Sports, Koryu and other competitors in this discussion and hopefully put a smile on everyones face, Here is what I use, Made by famous swordsmith: 株式会社マキタ : KM
kunitaro Posted November 24, 2012 Report Posted November 24, 2012 BUSHIDO by Inazo Nitobe CHAPTER III RECTITUDE OR JUSTICE HERE we discern the most cogent precept in the code of the samurai. Nothing is more loathsome to him than underhand dealings and crooked undertakings, CHAPTER XIII THE SWORD, THE SOUL OF THE SAMURAI BUSHIDO made the sword its emblem of power and prowess. When Mahomet proclaimed that "the sword is the key of Heaven and of Hell," he only echoed a Japanese sentiment. Very early the samurai boy learned to wield it. It was a momentous occasion for him when at the age of five he was apparelled in the paraphernalia of samurai costume, placed upon a go-board and initiated into the rights of the military profession, by having thrust into his girdle a real sword instead of the toy dirk with which he had been playing. After this first ceremony of adoptio per arma, he was no more to be seen outside his father's gates without this BADGE OF HIS STATUS, BTW. Complete Japanese Sword Cutting Technique. by Zen Nippon Batto-do Renmei
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