Mark Posted September 9, 2012 Report Posted September 9, 2012 i can read Bun____ 5th year 8 th month hard to make out the second kanji of the date, i was thinking maybe Bunroku? Quote
george trotter Posted September 10, 2012 Report Posted September 10, 2012 Mark, It is almost impossible (for me) to see anything. Going on the bottom right stroke (if it is a stroke) it could conceivably be Bunsei 1818-1830 Bunroku 1592-1596 but this is really, just a guess. It would be helpful if you showed the blade and mei also? regards, Quote
Mark Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Posted September 10, 2012 George Thanks. here are some pictures Noshu Ju Kanemoto. blade is 27" appears ubu, the sori and shape do not seem Shinshinto, but i guess it could be. The sanbansugi is not the "regular" type seen in latter generations, but it clearly is not the the Important Kanemoto. The Moto kanji is unusual, i have been looking for a maker who wrote it that way but have not found a similar mei yet. I hoped if i could narrow down the era it would help narrow the search. I appreciate the help Quote
leo Posted September 10, 2012 Report Posted September 10, 2012 Dear Mark, the pictures you sent last, make it pretty clear that this is a shinshinto Kanemoto at the earliest(imho). nakago, stroke style and the very regular gunome leave not much doubt. If we look at the remnants of the missing date kanji, it could be Bun-sei or Bun-kyu. I think the kanji in question had been deliberately hammered flat. Best, Martin Quote
Mark Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Posted September 10, 2012 Martin good point. shinshinto blades do resemble Koto swords at times. I had not thought of the kanji being hard to read as intentional, i am probably just naive. I appreciate the message, i will research it as being shinshinto. It is still a decent sword, and i enjoy trying to learn from each sword Quote
george trotter Posted September 11, 2012 Report Posted September 11, 2012 I'd have to agree with Martin. Seeing the pics of the blade and mei I felt it was gendai period, but of course the date is against this. The work looks like a Mino Seki blade to me of the tradition that later produced Kaneko Kanemoto (called himself 27 dai Magoroku from 1944 - actually looks like his work to me - his boshi midare/gonome) Maybe a place to start looking for this man would be the contemporaries/students of Kosaka Kaneyoshi (KAN 3067) 1837-1914 who was working from around 1850s. He was the man who maintained the Mino/Gifu tradition through Meiji and was teacher of the 4 later Seki smiths Kanenaga, Kanemitsu, Kanenobu, Kanekuni who taught the Mino Showa smiths of WWII who on total rating are about twice as good as the Yasukuni smiths. It is possible, since Kaneyoshi was working from 1850s that your Kanemoto is a contemporary or a student. Just a suggestion....I am often wrong . Regards, Quote
cabowen Posted September 11, 2012 Report Posted September 11, 2012 He was the man who maintained the Mino/Gifu tradition through Meiji and was teacher of the 4 later Seki smiths Kanenaga, Kanemitsu, Kanenobu, Kanekuni who taught the Mino Showa smiths of WWII who on total rating are about twice as good as the Yasukuni smiths. Do you mean the total rating value of the Seki smiths you mention is about twice higher than the total rating value of the rated Yasukuni smiths? Quote
george trotter Posted September 11, 2012 Report Posted September 11, 2012 Hi Chris, I knew I would get in trouble when I said that...just on the question of totals...the total rating value of Seki group is 27.5 mil...the total ratings for Yasukuni is 15.8 mil (is that what you asked?). Just going on the Toko Taikan rating system, the Seki smiths are: teacher's teacher: Kaneyoshi 2.5 mil teachers: Kanenobu, Kanenaga 2.0 mil students: Kanemichi, Kanehide 2.0 mil Kanekuni, Kanenaga 1.5 mil The remaining 14 students are 1.0 mil. 21 smiths = 27.5 mil yen the Yasukuni smiths are: (teacher Shigetsugu 2.5 mil) Yasumitsu, Yasutake 2.0 mil Yasuhiro 1.8 mil Yasunori, Yasuoki 1.5 mil The remaining 6 are 1.0 mil 12 smiths = 15.8 mil yen I'm not sure if I've missed anyone...the Yasukuni are harder to unravel and I haven't included the teacher/teachers before Shigetsugu...hope it's reasonably correct...very basic I know, but going on the rough scale of Tokuno it just looks like the Seki group were generally higher rated overall...(I am always happy to be corrected in my misguided ways though ). regards, Edit: I just read you again Chris... I don't mean to say that a Seki smith is twice as highly rated as an equivalent Yasukunitosho, I meant really that the Seki group has more highly rated smiths by number, (7) in the group than the Yasukuni (5). Individually Yasukuni has two 2 mil smiths and Seki has four 2 mil smiths. Just looked at it in percentage terms also and it paints a different picture: the Yasukuni group has a higher percentage of rated smiths (5 out of 12 = about 41%), and Seki has 7 out of 21 = about 33%...so perhaps I should stop now! Quote
cabowen Posted September 11, 2012 Report Posted September 11, 2012 Kasama Shigetsugu has a tenuous link to the Yasukuni Shrine (teacher of Yasuhiro)..... I can guarantee you that the Yasukuni blades are much more in demand, and priced accordingly higher, than those of the Seki smiths you have listed. I can also say, having seen many many blades by all of the Yasukuni smiths, and a few blades by most of those Seki smiths, that there is little comparison- the Yasukuni smiths were making blades at a much higher level. The early Seki smiths you listed made few swords as there was little demand at the time, while the Yasukuni smiths, by and large, made probably 10-20 times as many. As many a smith has said, practice makes perfect.... There are a number of issues with the rankings seen on smiths of this period....Someday we should find ourselves together to discuss it over a few cool Belgian beers.... Quote
David Flynn Posted September 11, 2012 Report Posted September 11, 2012 Again Chris, I will have to dissagree with you. I have quite a few Seki blades, I would definately say a better than most Yasukuni blades. Saying this though, isn't it all proportional? A good blade, made by any smith, is a good blade. Quote
cabowen Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 We'll have to agree to disagree on the Seki vs Yasukuni topic, though there is no arguing the point that a good sword is a good sword...I just haven't seen many needles in the Seki haystack.... Quote
george trotter Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 I think I/we have hijacked this thread (sorry), Chris, I did not mean to imply that Seki work was better than Yasukuni work, just that the sword scholars generally rate the Seki smiths higher than the Yasukuni smiths. This does not seem to have an effect on reality however as what you say about collector demand and price is certainly true. Collectors pay 4 times as much for a good blade by a 1.0 mil yen rated Yasukunitosho than they do for a good blade by a 2.0 mil rated Sekitosho.These quirks are common to all spheres of collecting. Dave, I would have to say that I have seen more Yasukunito in hand than I have of Sekito. Of these the Yasukunito were all without flaws, but one of the Sekito had ha-gire which I assessed as from forging wide choji with very long ashi...so in my limited experience I think the qualities compared very well, except one Sekito had a flaw. When comparing my interest in the hamon, the Yasukunito all had a wide suguba which did not attract me, while the Sekito varied from gonome/togari to full choji and even one ko-midare...all of which I liked. I have seen pics where some Yasukunito have non-suguba hamon however...these looked nice. Both groups were very fine swords. The Sekito are scarcer than the Yasukunito IMHO.I wonder if the Japanese collectors are as keen on Yasukunito as we are in the west? regards, Quote
cabowen Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Both groups were very fine swords. The Sekito are scarcer than the Yasukunito IMHO.I wonder if the Japanese collectors are as keen on Yasukunito as we are in the west? regards, Without a doubt, traditionally made blades from Seki are scarcer than the 8000+ blades made at the Yasukuni forge.... There is considerable collector interest in Japan in Yasukuni blades, by far more than any other group of the period. Fujishiro Okisato started this interest many years ago by bringing them to the attention of the collector community with his article in Token Bijutsu. This article was translated and appeared in the West, which launched the interest here. The fact that the Yasukuni smiths had access to the best materials and tools, were given monetary awards for winning the regular shinsas held by their overseers, and were competing against one another all combined to create an atmosphere of excellence. Quote
george trotter Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Well Mark, You have had some comments on your Kanemoto and hopefully it was of assistance. Let us know what you find out in due course. good luck, Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Greetings, Nothing like prime examples to add images to the conversation. Having seen both swords in hand I'd gladly take them both without prejudice. http://www.nihonto.us/WATANABE%20KANENAGA%20-%20GENDAITO.htm http://www.nihontocraft.com/Yasukuni_Shrine_Yasuhiro_Katana.html Quote
cabowen Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Notice how much nicer the mei and nakago are finished in the Yasukuni blade. Also notice how much nicer the jigane is.....I see this all too often in Seki work. Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 The Yasukuni was the finer blade, impressive in fact. What impressed about the Kanenaga was how well it presented a true copy of a Koto Kanemoto, later swords frequently miss the mark when it comes to getting the shape of an old sword correct. Quote
cabowen Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 True enough, if you like that sort of thing..... Quote
David Flynn Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Wow comparing all on two swords! I personally don't care where a sword is made, as long as it's good. Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 Wow comparing all on two swords! I personally don't care where a sword is made, as long as it's good. "Comparing all" , if you carefully reread my previous post nowhere is the word 'compare' used, they are simply two examples meant nothing more than to add images to the discussion instead of simply reading names without association, meaning, not a difficult concept to grasp. Quote
george trotter Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 Interesting pics. I can certainly see the influence of Kanenaga in my Kanehide (his student), except my Kanehide is more gunto shape. A friend's WWII blade (27 in) by Kaneko Kanemoto (called himself 27 dai Magoroku) is very similar to this Kanenaga in elegance and hamon. (question) What is the correct name for the little spots in the tip of the togari? Is it nioi kuzure? yo? (I ask as I have this in my unknown Seisui blade togari, but none of my books really is clear on it). On nakago finishing and mei: I have found that of all the smith schools, right up to modern times, that the nakago shape and mei cutting of Mino/Seki smiths is probably the most un-appealing. It is almost as though they try to be sloppy. Only Kanehide made a decent job of both IMHO (but I have seen oshigata of the occasional shocker!). Yasukuni...what can I say...very fine swords, but for me the suguba is not very inspiring (yes I know, a good sword is a good sword), I would like one, but I'll wait until a nice midareba or chojiba comes along Regards, Quote
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