NBTHK papering and Tsuba with questionable Kin zogan mei

[Curran]

Of course.

 

Christian- No. Don't have that book or much experience in that area.

Just raising a topic Brian T. and John Tirado have introduced to me before. Other explanation most welcome.

 

____________________________

In addition to certain tsuba, seem to share a shellbriar habit. These are the only two I have. Call it a daisho.

Petersons' also good for winter. Colonel Dean Hartley was also fond of them too.

[Curran]

Mike, you have PMs.

 

Well, 20 minutes with a few Higo texts and I had an answer:

 

--Those irogane Hirata with the concentric punch marks often have the ~red under black~ lacquer in or around the concentric punch marks surrounding the nakago ana. Not always.

We have 3 NBTHK papered Hirata tsuba: 2 Hizokos (I'm guessing the one Mike posted is his and papered Hizoko), and mine which I presume to be a nidai work.

Upon getting the nidai tsuba out and looking at it, mine *does* have the red under black lacquer traces in the concentric punch marks around the nakago ana. I'd only previously remembered Jim Gilbert pointing it out in the sukashi walls.

 

All three have the concentric punch marks around the nakago ana.

Two of them have the red under black lacquer in the concentric punch marks around the nakago ana. Peter claims his does not, putting it in the "not always" camp.

Nor (if mine is a nidai work as I believe), does it seem that this is particular to the first gen.

 

Conclusion: Presence of the red and black lacquer in association with presence of concentric punch marks on an irogane tsuba, seemingly Hirata, - is a vote in favor of authenticity,

though not absolute. Could stand some stat testing, but don't know if we can pull that many papered punch mark Hirata this side of Japan.

[christianmalterre]

Curran

 

Me equally do not have experience(at least an good enough one so to give any sophisticated statement here)on this field...

Those objects ben lacquered in the traditional way-at least concerning an either situated metal(may it be ferric or softmetal)or(equally leather or wood) which is used as the core material-those all were of 90% of what i have seen till yet,lacquered in an 2 or multiple way of application.(the surface/final coating partially twice that in thickness)-the red lacquer(so rather the undercoat and the essential one we are headaking about here always but ben present!)

(10% rest remaining wore an fire-gilded underlyer where black urushi was directly applied on it, as the final coat)

This is an reason of final colouration,brightness and intended "optical shining" intended behind...equally it may have functional reason(humidity,wear ect.)

 

I had this mentioned book in hand once-just can say it´s very fascinating and there´s plenty of info and very excellent picture material inside...

Did not buy it mineself till yet-think but it may be well worth so to purchase...(at least,i did not see any other till yet, dealing such profound in this field)

(such i did ask-as i think you´ll find an well written analysis inside-explaining excellently the "why"´s and "if"´s...)

Very beautiful book!

 

Chris

[raiden]

Ok sorry for late response, 4 kids is a busy sunday not to mention the whole weekend..... momotaro play was today!

anyway, back to Higo - my posted piece is Juyo, but when talking with a well known expert friend in Japan about specs and points for Hikozo, the "red" color isn't prevalent to either shodai or nidai. Perhaps one day I will do a lecture for advanced higo collectors. In Japan I took in many "invite only"study group meetings (one with Fukushi sensei when he did Higo). We got to see and handle some of the most famous Hikozo, Matashichi and Jingo that you see in most of the main books that feature top examples of main Higo. I have been a Higo fanatic for many many years, and I especially love Higo koshirae.

Mike

Oh all PM's have been answered!I actually forgot we have that service.

[Curran]

4?

Wakarimashita. Cyrus has 3?

 

No kids on this end, but largely due to me being eldest surviving son caring for a bunch of family. Never the less, elderly children not nearly the same as younglings.

Raymond joined the papa crowd this year, and perhaps we will next year or two.

[Lorenzo]

Curran, interesting find. I'll see if I can find some other reference, I've got a huge archive of pictures of the first generation higo masters but almost all are in black and white.

 

By the way, talking higo... anyone knows a book with a extensive range of higo koshirae pictured? I've seen quite a lot in shops but few on books.

[Pete Klein]

Curran -- I am currious as to the paper and attribution of your tsuba. It's interesting.

Also, which text did you find the lacquer informaiton in?

Pete

[Curran]

Quote, "We have 3 NBTHK papered Hirata tsuba: 2 Hizokos (I'm guessing the one Mike posted is his and papered Hizoko), and mine which I presume to be a nidai work."

Juyo, Tokubetsu Hozon, and Hozon respectively.

 

Lorenzo: I've had a Higo koshirae build stop&starting for nearly 10 years. Largely dealt with Cary Condell, JOhn Tirado, and Brian T on it. We used Higo Kinko taikan, Visual Glossary 2Vol set, and the Uchigatana book for a small catalog of Higo koshirae. The Edo tanto & wakizashi koshiare books also added some value. Also, a few examples culled off the web over years. A New York area collector has a nice Higo koshirae example with only minor restoration, and I also had the chance to study in person the Juyo one Bob Benson had posted. I've had a fair bit of correspondence with the owner of the Juyo koshirae and other Higo collectors. My Hirata came from the owner of that Juyo koshirae, and was sort of a Japanese-style gift that surprised me. My interests in kodogu are primarily not Higo.

 

If you find a single book with a good catalog of Higo koshirae, please let me know. Another New York collector has made the Kowalski library available to us and provided tons of photocopies. The irogane Hirata tsuba - lacquer information isn't really new. Just in Japanese, which I haven't been able to read-translate until recently.

[raiden]

Curran,

Cyrus has 4 girls....

[Curran]

Oh dear.

The X chromosome runs strong in that family. Wonder what the finally tally will be.

He once fired a disparaging comment about women and their expensive handbags.

The karma payback seems to be enormous. It would be rather evil if he was put on the Hermes mailing list.

 

Cyrus have any interest in collecting shotguns? I seem to be inheriting a few vintage ones, though Cyrus might prefer a sawed off K-Town special.

[Lorenzo]

Curran we talked about that koshirae of yours privately about one year ago. I was wondering if you got it back by now..

I have 2 out of 3 of the books you mentioned.

So no single book out there waiting for my money after all..

 

Thank you for the info.

[raiden]

not cyrus, his wife is shopping for one....

so what is your primary tsuba collecting type Curran? It snot Higo so then........

[Curran]

Mike,

 

I wish it were as easy as to say a particular school. The best I can do is say it tends to fall along enjoyment of very simple nature or religious designs.

This has unintentionally led to a concentration of Owari works, but ranges from Haguro tsuba, to Umetada hon zogan (correct term?), and Ezo menuki. The Hirata's Matsukawa mon pine bark element was perfect for my tastes. Among Higo, sometimes the Hirata and Shimizu designs. I envy some of Dr. Dorfman's pieces. Hayashi hasn't been my cup of tea, but the last tsuba I ever purchased was one of the Citrus tree ones. I have no idea what generation. Probably late, if even mainschool. I've been on hiatus from buying while dealing with summer house repair-renovation bills.... and awaiting the return of the project Lorenzo and I discussed.

 

I've been recently studying the aforementioned Nambokuchu tachi tsuba. The weight of it at near 12 ounces for a kinko tsuba, which surprised me. The waves design and 12 of the 16 are various flowers. Boris has a smaller yet similar one: http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/BM%20N ... 0Tsuba.htm

 

Yes Lorenzo, I remember discussing it with you. That will be a milestone when that project is finally finished. Last I heard, it was in round 3 or 4 of lacquerwork. I would like to learn a lot more about traditional Japanese lacquerwork. Maybe the koshirae comes back next month. Maybe next year. or 2014.... I hope late this year or early next year and have been preparing for the bill.

We have the long move back to the FL house once the work-repairs are done, so trying to keep it simple and trim down what we must transport at the end of Fall.

[Pete Klein]

If they are Parker let me know.

[Brian]

And if they are Boss, Purdey, Woodward, Holland & Holland, Churchill or Rigby....let me know. :lol:

But I digress..back to tsuba.

(Sorry...the next post was deleted. I don't mind gun talk..but that's why we have the izakaya)

 

Brian

[christianmalterre]

back to serious things then...

those who do not know them already-?

taken from the Halberstadt Collection publication Vol I.

(sorry-not in colour,but those of you who are seriously interested may contact me via PM as i did photograph most of this collection live last year,had to crowd...)

Maybe helpful?

Christian

[myochin]

Fantastic read Guys, many thanks !

The only reference I can find that mentions Higo koshirae is the following article:

 

Uchigatana Koshirae (Fred Weissberg), To-Ron Sept 2007

 

Paul.