NBTHK papering and Tsuba with questionable Kin zogan mei

[Curran]

I have recently seen a tsuba up for sale that screams to me work of a Nishigaki school artisan.

I owned a near identical one years ago, papered to "Nishigaki"

 

The one up for sale is unpapered. It has a kin zogan signature that I interpret to be an attribution.

But the "signature" is to a Jingo artist. Does the NBTHK kill this one as gimei?

 

____Please, no debate about whether the mei is right or wrong____

 

To simplify the question: How does the NBTHK regard incorrect kin zogan attributions on tsuba ?

[Jean]

She does not care, Curran. She is going to ignore it....

[NihontoEurope]

Curran,

 

I know extremely little of tsubas and fittings, but I enjoy looking at the fine art they are.

 

Having said that...I have never seen a K/Z Mei on a tsuba before.

 

It would be very interesting to see one...googling the net now...

 

/Martin

[Curran]

Jean,

 

She = NBTHK ?

(a) Ignore the kinzogan to a Jingo smith, and paper to Nishigaki

(b) Ignore the tsuba, ie. not paper it

[Soshin]

Hi Curren,

 

I remember being told by someone that the NBTHK will fail it and would not igoure the false attribution. The specific case that I remember was for a Nihonto. Not completely sure for Tosogu. If the attribution can be safely removed I would do so. This was done to nakago of a Nihonto and it later passed after failing once before with the false attribution.

 

PS Thank for the tsuba boxes.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Toryu2020]

Curran -

 

No pictures?

[Jean]

Curran,

 

At the opposite, I think I remember having seen blade with shumei or kinzogan mei papered by NBTHK to other smith.

 

Shumei/kinzogan mei, are just kanteisho on the artefact, and by the past, nbthk has already issued different kanteisho for the same blade.

 

It is not gimei

 

Now, perhaps Henry or tsuba guys can answer the question.

[Curran]

David: The boxes go out soon. Thanks, as it helps pay the bills.

Glad to have 2008-2009 in the rear view mirror, but housing bills like to crop up randomly. This year it is roofing and deck repairs.

Whatever induced me to buy such a large old house. Should have waited until we had kids.

 

Tom: I have NO interest in buying the tsuba. I haven't heard back if one of my friends might be. More his thing, but no opinion yet. No photos till then.

 

Jean: With swords, I thought it was as David said. Wrong inlaid mei = rejected for papers.

However, as thin kinzogan for a signature- the tsuba mei would be easy to remove. I have also seen a tsuba where I forget what the hitch was,

but it had punch marks to indicate a particular Kamiyoshi smith. It obviously wasn't. The NBTHK papers decided to say "Higo" in classical Japanese vagueness.

 

BUT... not sure how the NBTHK would handle this mistaken (my opinion) mei. Would they simply paper it to "Higo" or not paper it at all?

[christianmalterre]

Curran,

 

what would be the fees so to get Hozon?

(the very last time i did submit something is years ago-and it was around 400 DM/500 DM (Deutsche Mark!)

(Agent not included)

 

I´d say-just try out this lottery if the actual resulting fees won´t exaggerate?

Really don´t know how this is dealt actually...

 

 

Christian

[Henry Wilson]

I have no real experience with shinsa (never submitted anything / only observed a few NTHK-NPO ones in my early days of collecting). I usually go on the opinion of senior Japanese collectors I know which is quicker, cheaper and usually a lot more educational than a regular shinsa from what I gather.

 

However, personally I think the tsuba would bounce with a kin zogan, pretty much as a "gimei" would. I have also heard that to remove a signature of any type from a tsuba is much more difficult than a sword, mainly becasue it is very difficult to repair the patina.

 

Cheers

[Brian]

Anyone still in communication with Gordon Robson? I know he used to be fairly approachable, and could give a definitive answer to this question.

 

Brian

[raiden]

I have recently seen a tsuba up for sale that screams to me work of a Nishigaki school artisan.

I owned a near identical one years ago, papered to "Nishigaki"

 

The one up for sale is unpapered. It has a kin zogan signature that I interpret to be an attribution.

But the "signature" is to a Jingo artist. Does the NBTHK kill this one as gimei?

 

____Please, no debate about whether the mei is right or wrong____

 

To simplify the question: How does the NBTHK regard incorrect kin zogan attributions on tsuba ?

 

________Mr Curran wrote the above:_________

Unfortunately without seeing the tsuba in a clear fashion, it is difficult to see if there is an actual kinzogan mei or an attribution put there properly (not trying to be a fake signature). As far as Higo tsuba go, those that are serious students know tha there are examples seen by Matashichi and Rakuju with kinzogan signatures that are have been deemed genuine. However, in my experience, I have not seen any examples of Jingo, Nishigaki, Hirata, Suwa, Kumagai or Toyama.... that have kinzogan mei that have been deemed genuine by the NBTHK. But in my experience, usually the NBTHK will A). Paper the tsuba if they deem the kinzogan mei correct such as in the case of Hayashi Matashichi or Kamiyoshi Rakuju. B). Fail the piece if they feel it is not an appropriate signature or attribution not deemed genuine not from a recognized appraiser (such as in the case of swords - the Honnami family or in the case of soft metal, attributions from the Goto family) C). Declare the piece as a "Horyu" meaning they are not sure at the moment and the piece requires more further study before determining either way.( There is no charge if a "Horyu is issued) or in a rare case issue a verdict on the piece regardless of the gold inlayed signature, but adding the fact that this item has a type of gold signature on it but not verified by the NBTHK. ex: nishigaki -but, blah blah blah kinzogan mei ga aru. But my feeling is that IF this tsuba is a nishigaki piece, but has a Jingo Kin in mei, most likely it will not achieve Hozon, but without seeeing the piece, my opinion at this point is moot point. But the 2 schools worked very close to each other in both style and technique.

[raiden]

here are some famous examples that have been deemed genuine for many years.

[raiden]

[raiden]

thats all from me guys, now i gotta make breakfast for the kids ! School day! Sorry if I stepped on any toes!

Mike

[Jean]

Very interesting Mike, thanks for sharing your thoughts

[Curran]

Kinzogan to: Yatsuhiro ju Jingo + Kao or appraisor's mark. (Jingo: using the 五 character, sans "box" underneath)

 

Signature or attribution?

 

_______________________________________________________

 

"Mr. Mike", what's with the "Mr. Curran" ? We've dealt, or not dealt, with each other for at least ten years.

At least since the front of the room Kariganeya Hikobei rant in San Fran.

 

You're knowledge is appreciated in this matter. Yes, the kinzogan Hayashi where the mei matches the work is a classic. Rakuju seems to have been fond of the kinzogan mei.

Several others about too.

Have any kinzogan Shimizu-Jingo ones? I don't recall any off hand.

[raiden]

Curran,

I am just teasing, as you did not say Hi to me at the last Tampa show! I have a question, is the kin mei on both sides of the seppa dai? remember we are flying blind here..... or is the attribution on the left with the kao on the rightside?

Mike

[raiden]

oh, and as far as I have seen, there have been no kinzogan mei for Jingo, Kanshiro or Hikozo. This seems to be reserved for the top tier of the Hayashi or Kamiyoshi schools.

[Curran]

The smartest Higo collector I know (only know Ito-san through proxy, and never seem to agree with Jim G opinions anymore) says the kinzogan Jingo isn't correct and isn't interested in buying it. I'm not buying diddly until I get out from under a wave of house expenses & my buying of Higo pieces is sideline, being more interested in other schools.

 

So here have a go:

 

http://page13.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/r93523018

Satsuma mon.

 

This tsuba has probably had more discussion than it is worth, in my understanding of it.

Opinions welcome as to whether or not this one would paper at shinsa.

[raiden]

definitely no pass in my opinion.

[Soshin]

Hi Curran,

 

After viewing the tsuba in question I would agree this tsuba don't deserve this much discussion. I am also of the opinion that I wouldn't even bother with submitting it to NBTHK shinsa IF it was in my collection because someone gave it to me as a gift.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Curran]

David,

 

Ouch. Harsh. You're definitely not a Higo lover.

It is a decent piece that I would say falls to the Nishigaki if it didn't have that signature/attribution to Jingo on it.

[Soshin]

Hi Curran,

 

I agree I wouldn't consider myself a lover of the Higo schools in my eyes a bit over rated with so many copies and fakes. As a matter of fact I have a modern Higo copy on my website for sale http://dastiles1.wix.com/reflections-#!sales/c6jy. In regards to the not submitting a tsuba for shinsa there are a few tsuba in my collection that I will not bother submitting to NBTHK shinsa and I really like them. Some examples include those tsuba that already have NBTHK or NTHK papers, tsuba that have already failed shinsa or would fail (AKA all of my Yamakichibei tsuba), went through a fire or have other major condition issues.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Henry Wilson]

David,

It is a decent piece that I would say falls to the Nishigaki if it didn't have that signature/attribution to Jingo on it.

 

I agree with Curran. To me, the metal looks Nishigaki not Jingo.

[Lorenzo]

Curran, I believe I mentioned before on this forum, but last time I went to Japan I had an interesting discussion with a connoisseur who fooled me with a couple of higoesque tsuba which in truth was from Satsuma.

 

See the map, the provinces was confining.

 

He said the fashion was contagious and some works was copied / "made in the style of". The Jingo shape but without a Jingo tetsu, and the Satsuma mon... says it all for me. I wanted to see the enlarged pictures but I can't and I don't know why, so I have to trust you about the steel surface.

 

To me, defiantly no pass. I would say Satsuma tsuba.

 

Lorenzo

[raiden]

Nishigaki school made several versions of this tsuba style, originally from the first kanshiro. However, without seeing the tsuba in hand, i have some reservations as to it possibly being later due to the apparant thick rim with the nakane style mimi zogan. And because i am an avid higo fan, i must say shame on those that do not like higo! I wonder how thick that rim was......

[Lorenzo]

Higo schools in my eyes a bit over rated with so many copies and fakes

 

Sorry David but the problem is exactly there, you lack the eyes to judge Higo work.

[raiden]

heres something I bought a while back that fits this discussion

[raiden]