Nobody Posted September 5, 2012 Report Posted September 5, 2012 I do not agree with Darcy's theory. Among his evidences, No.1 and No.8 look especially objective and firm. However, I will try to answer the question. I will show two pictures of the same scale taken by the same camera. The left picture was taken from a slant direction while the other was taken vertically. The top (0 in) and the bottom (6 in) of the pictures are aligned. However, as you can see, inner scale points (1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 in) become offset on the left picture. This fact is not so special. As most of you already know, it is a perspective effect well known in drawing graphics or photography. I think that this fact well denies the basis of Darcy's evidences 1 and 8. When you watch carefully the mekugiana and inside surface of the hole in the picture of the fake blade, you will notice that the picture was not taken from the accurate vertical direction.
Eric H Posted September 5, 2012 Report Posted September 5, 2012 I also do not agree to Darcy‘s explanations. On thorough examination of the two photos, that on the origami in a pale violet, not representing the true color of the nakago, though irregularities, patches, discolorations are present and they are equally to make out when carefully inspected on the alledgedly fake...they are located precisely at the same places as on the origami photo. Next the mekugi ana gives evidence of the different angles of the shot. Other strong evidence is the vertical line, the discolorations, and the accurate continuation of the nagashi lines. If this is the result of a faker than Kudos to him. Eric
Brian Posted September 5, 2012 Report Posted September 5, 2012 Personally, I feel 110% confident that these are the same. Although Darcy presented an excellent analysis, much of it can be explained by angles or lighting. Whereas I feel there is no way on earth someone can copy the mei that exact. If possible, then they would be able to gimei blades so perfectly, that no shinsa would be able to dispute the signature. That mei is perfect down to the exact tagane strokes in each kanji. I am sure Ford would agree that it would take skill beyond most artisans to copy that mei so precisely. Excellent example by Moriyama san too...can't dispute that Brian
runagmc Posted September 5, 2012 Author Report Posted September 5, 2012 The mei is perfect, but even more impossible to fake are all the subtleties of the patination. There's just no way... and as I said before, even if it was possible, it would be a complete waste of time and effort for a sword like this. If someone COULD do this, they would be doing it with BIG MONEY BLADES with BIG TIME PAPERS.
almeister Posted September 5, 2012 Report Posted September 5, 2012 Wow , Interesting story Adam - Thanks for posting . Darcy , Interesting Concept/s behind your theory , However , IMHO - I'd have to go with the majority on this one . You explained the geometry of things to well & that was probably your worst enemy behind your theory , as the geometry /differences of the angles of the pictures taken /difference in lighting /appear to be consistent with the changes to the nakago that you see , eg -chips on edges / misalignment of characters /discrepancies in depth of characters /discrepancies in corrosive & other areas of nakago - this is backed up by the visual location of the mekugiana in the pictures - as pointed out to you by the other members . This exercise could even be replicated by using a simple block of timber that has grain chips etc .. change lighting conditions & angles & it could easily look like a different block of timber . It would also be good to see the certificate & the rest of the blade - in case I'm missing something - this appears to be based on the nakago only - Hope there's no hidden tricks to the story ! Cheers , Alan
george trotter Posted September 5, 2012 Report Posted September 5, 2012 Someone took a legit papered blade, and doctored up another to look like it, Without taking sides, other than to say that the two look the same to me...can I raise a question of logic in relation to someone faking a sword nakago to match a photo. Wouldn't it (in logic) be easier to just replace the existing photos on the paper with a pair of photos of the "fake" nakago? I mean, wouldn't it be easier to: 1. make a mould of the small portion of the seal on the original pic 2. remove the original pics 3. press the mould of the seal into the new pic of the "fake" nakago 4. stick on the "fake" pics in exactly the right place to match the seal on the paper. To my mind, if this was to be a faking job, this pic swap is by far the quickest, easiest and safest method....far easier than matching an existing nakago's yasuri, "dings", spots, mei etc...especially the rust line. Just my 2 cents. Regards,
sencho Posted September 5, 2012 Report Posted September 5, 2012 To my mind, if this was to be a faking job, this pic swap is by far the quickest, easiest and safest method....far easier than matching an existing nakago's yasuri, "dings", spots, mei etc...especially the rust line. Exactly George... why go to all the trouble..?? is it worth that much??? Does not make sense, and if it don't make sense, probably not true. Cheers
drbvac Posted September 5, 2012 Report Posted September 5, 2012 George: Almost sounds as if you have done this before or at least put a lot of thought into the process - that said I agree with what you and others have said - it would be impossible to do it the other way around and these are the same blade.
Ed Posted September 6, 2012 Report Posted September 6, 2012 Hey Ed,are you sure you want a paper signed by someone called "Shoshin Gimei" It sounds like Jean sensei might be hard to pin down! (this wouldn't be a case of "Dr No"...but more likely a case of "Dr Maybe...Maybe-Not". George, Depends on how cheap they are
Eric H Posted September 6, 2012 Report Posted September 6, 2012 This bizarre story lacks any logic and is full of inconsistencies. If you replace the name of this insignificant Kunimune by Kiyomaro. You go to NBTHK with the respective origami and the blade claiming the blade is gimei...and NBTHK as reported confirm paper OK... "but the blade is very similar to the blade in the paper, but they are different“...(after one hour of research and they don‘t say explicitly it‘s gimei) Would you do that!...never....the blade value would drastically fall. This is exactly what happens with the blade of this papered Kunimune, but I suppose, his blades, low rated, are not much searched. Anyway the research by some members based on the photos proves another outcome than Usagiya‘s conclusion and is valid at least to the nakago. Eric
almeister Posted September 6, 2012 Report Posted September 6, 2012 Hi Eric , That's what I meant by the jibber in my last post on this thread , If you have a certificate & the blade - the certificate normally states some dimensions/characteristics of the blade . If these are consistent with with the blade on hand - then one would have an extreme argument to their case that the certificate was for that blade . We are assuming the information given is correct , if so - it could appear that upon 2nd inspection by Shinsa it was considered Gimei . At the end of the day - if the above mentioned is consistent & the blade were to be Gimei - this person has a blade & certificate which is gonna fool anyone Cheers , Alan
Eric H Posted September 6, 2012 Report Posted September 6, 2012 I agree fully with your arguments. Eric
Eric H Posted September 6, 2012 Report Posted September 6, 2012 Why not ask Usagiya directly on this subject? Therefore I wrote a mail this morning to Usagiya and the response was very quickly at hand. My questions were not completely answered, but this is what I got: Dear Mr. ... I am sorry I am just an operator of our website, and have small knowledge of sword. Our staff said the signature of the blade is fake. That is all. Other things happened following that. We have no staff who is familiar with papering system. We think the news was a trifling thing to study sword. Let’s study sword together. Sincerely yours. Sumie Kashima, operator of Usagiya Eric
almeister Posted September 6, 2012 Report Posted September 6, 2012 mmmm ........ OK Thanks Eric ! Cheers , Alan
runagmc Posted September 6, 2012 Author Report Posted September 6, 2012 This bizarre story lacks any logic and is full of inconsistencies. If you replace the name of this insignificant Kunimune by Kiyomaro. You go to NBTHK with the respective origami and the blade claiming the blade is gimei...and NBTHK as reported confirm paper OK... "but the blade is very similar to the blade in the paper, but they are different“...(after one hour of research and they don‘t say explicitly it‘s gimei)Would you do that!...never....the blade value would drastically fall. This is exactly what happens with the blade of this papered Kunimune, but I suppose, his blades, low rated, are not much searched. Anyway the research by some members based on the photos proves another outcome than Usagiya‘s conclusion and is valid at least to the nakago. Eric Maybe they wanted to find out from the NBTHK if the paper was fake... Also, they knew the sword was gimei, so I guess they didn't intend to sell someone a gimei sword as shoshin... It's called having a conscience...
george trotter Posted September 6, 2012 Report Posted September 6, 2012 George: Almost sounds as if you have done this before or at least put a lot of thought into the process - that said I agree with what you and others have said - it would be impossible to do it the other way around and these are the same blade. Brian san, No, not speaking from experience...just logic (that's why I sometimes come a cropper...logic and Japanese swords don't always go hand in hand...). it sure is a strange little conundrum. I'm glad that in my area of interest (WWII gendaito) it is not really necessary to bother with papers...although maybe this will change too, as I hear there are some gimei Yasukunito noted. Regards,
Andi B. Posted September 6, 2012 Report Posted September 6, 2012 Hello, a bit off-topic, but comparing blades only with help of photos reminds me of the Martian Face pictures taken by the NASA in 1976...those nakago look really the same. Very interesting details to think about can be found in this thread!
Ed Posted September 6, 2012 Report Posted September 6, 2012 I'm glad that in my area of interest (WWII gendaito) it is not really necessary to bother with papers...although maybe this will change too George, May be changing for the worse. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13809
Eric H Posted September 7, 2012 Report Posted September 7, 2012 I have received another message from Usagiya which generates more important information on the subject: Dear Mr. ... The staff explained some more about the signature. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/news.html I hope it will be an answer for your question. Sincerely yours. Sumie Kashima, operator of Usagiya. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/ Eric
runagmc Posted September 7, 2012 Author Report Posted September 7, 2012 Eric, that makes the story even stranger. I noticed there were some marks that didn't seem to go with the visible kanji, but I couldn't tell that it was from previous mei... So it sounds like maybe this sword has had 2 false signatures during it's life :?
cabowen Posted September 7, 2012 Report Posted September 7, 2012 It makes it even clearer that the two swords are one in the same as they both share the same previous signature remnants.
steve0 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Posted September 7, 2012 The mei is perfect, but even more impossible to fake are all the subtleties of the patination. There's just no way... and as I said before, even if it was possible, it would be a complete waste of time and effort for a sword like this. If someone COULD do this, they would be doing it with BIG MONEY BLADES with BIG TIME PAPERS. unless they are practicing.....
Eric H Posted September 7, 2012 Report Posted September 7, 2012 The two photos, origami and nakago, are identical in all details. An original mei has been erased and replaced, now after the explanation clearly visible as faint marks at some places, though on the origami photo lesser clear. it is only one sword. Now I understand that the examination of this mei and its possible original mei has required about one hour. NBTHK experts have overlooked at the shinsa this fact and issued at bona fida the origami. The blade surely shows characteristics of this Shinshinto Tanshu Kunimune, failing this, they wouldn‘t have it papered. I am very thankful to Sumie Kashima and the staff for their efforts on this subject. Thank you Adam L. as the initiator of this interesting thread. Eric
runagmc Posted September 7, 2012 Author Report Posted September 7, 2012 You're welcome, Eric... and I appreciate your (and everyone else's) input.
Jacques Posted September 7, 2012 Report Posted September 7, 2012 Hi, NBTHK experts have overlooked at the shinsa this fact and issued at bona fida the origami. 1) The paper is genuine, but not published to the blade I brought. The blade I brought is very similar to the blade in the paper, but they are different. IMHO paper was checked (paper has a number which must match a sword) but not the photography which was probably switched as said by George.
Eric H Posted September 8, 2012 Report Posted September 8, 2012 Sumie Kashima was very accommodating in answering my questions...herewith her responses and you can make up your mind I am glad to hear that you like the information of the signature. Our staff doesn’t deserve to be praised. Because the trick of fake signature was so simple that you may be able to break it at once. The sword is not for sale. Now, it seems like that I have to reveal the story from the beginning to persuade you out. In fact, the sword was brought to us by our friend for consignment. The sword had belonged to his collection for some years. When our staff studied the sword, he broke the trick of signature. The friend was confused, because he didn’t think it fake. And the friend said that the sword was followed with a paper but he didn’t bring it together with. He expected to put the sword in consignment for the price of genuine. The next day, he brought us the paper. Then our staff went to NBTHK. The purpose was to save our policy against sword lovers like the friend. Our staff didn’t expect anything from NBTHK, but he was sure that any professor never say it genuine. After the staff came back from NBTHK, he told the friend what happened at NBTHK, and returned the sword to the friend. That is all the story of the sword “Tanshu Kunimune” passing for Usagiya. The friend has been a sword collector for some 10 years. If he studied the signature carefully, he might easily break the trick. The paper made him blind. Last response: OK, please feel free to give me questions. I will join you to the end of your question, because you seems to be a sword lover. I have to say again, it is not a merit of our staff to have discovered the fake. The trick is so simple, our staff thinks that NBTHK professors never overlook it. The professor at NBTHK said the paper is genuine, and the photograph on it is same to the ledger in NBTHK. Therefore he said the sword in paper is different to the sword our staff brought. It was clear solution. We can’t go into the closed door room, and we don’t want to know the policy of NBTHK. The signature of the sword our staff brought is fake, NBTHK agreed it. That is all. Paper is not a matter of our concern. Eric
Brian Posted September 8, 2012 Report Posted September 8, 2012 Nothing more that came come from this one anymore. Interesting case study, but just one of those odd variances that happens from time to time. Time to close this one down. Brian
Recommended Posts