Shinto Wakizashi I spotted at a flea market today

[Chonmage]

I saw this today when I went to a flea market. Sadly I only had the iphone so the pictures are what they are.

The reason I wanted to post it here is the kissaki, or whatever I should call this.

 

I've never seen this before, and I thought that maybe someone else here has.

 

 

I drew it slowly and I was pretty pleased with what I saw considering the cost, but then the wakizashi left it's scabbard completely and I was bewildered, and slightly in chock.

The owner told me it had been broken and fixed during edo so I could have it for a sweet price.

 

However, it has never been broken as far as I can tell.

To me it seems that the curve is a bit off (The curve takes of rather late only to start tipping forward). Other than that its a nice mid-low range blade (up until the kissaki).

 

But what kind of blade is this? Everything about it suggests strongly that it was made to be in the state it currently is in. Some funky reverse kisakki-grind down.

 

The disadvantages this would give the user in actual combat strongly hints that this was never intended for any conflict what so ever.

Glorified magura cutter anyone?

Anyway, I'm at my wits end. If anyone has seen something similar before please give me piece of mind.

 

 

Thanks,

-Anders

[Brian]

It's just a broken kissaki, badly repaired. Nothing more. Someone tried to keep as much hamon as possible, maybe even retempering the tip?

 

Brian

[Chonmage]

Thanks for the input Brian. but I can't agree with it. This doesn't look like a retempered tip to me. Added to that both the ha and and the shinogi follows the curve: the curve that goes away from the mune.

A badly broken tip would be filed reverse don't you agree? No one would file the kissaki to face the wrong way, if you know what I mean.

 

- Anders

[runagmc]

If it was a repair the sword would have to have been re-hardened, and I don't know if they wouldv'e done that to a broken and repaired blade. I also don't see why the hell they would make a sword this way intentionally so . Also, I'm not sure this sword is very old... or even traditionally made for that matter.

 

I've read that when a hagire appeared or a sword broke sometimes they would do a repair like this, but I would think it would only be until the sword could be replaced.

[SwordGuyJoe]

That is about the weirdest thing I've ever seen. Can you post pics of the nakago? Brian could be right about the "kissaki" being retempered, although there is no evidence of this IMHO. Typically you can see signs of retemper in a less than uniform hamon (harder in places than other), but I don't see that here. The hamon looks pretty uniform. That said, I can't imagine any smith would do this on purpose. Is there a mune on the termpered side?

[nagamaki - Franco]

well, that's one way to fix a broken/cut-off sword where the entire original kissaki is gone and where the hamon runs off. Not sure what's going on with the new turn back if that's a real turnback or just a polisher's handywork, but at least it has a truly tempered tip. I've seen this fix discussed before on a signed Shinto period Jo Saku sword where the front third had been cut off to make a hunting knife, in order to perhaps save the remaining 2/3rds including a wonderfully cut mei.

[cabowen]

If the boshi is genuine, then it is shaped like a nata. I have seen several of these and they are original. Said to be made for bonsai work, ikebana, etc. They are sometimes called "kubi-kiri", or neck cutters, for taking heads on the battlefield. That seems to be a Western invention.

[ROKUJURO]

  Brian said:

....... Someone tried to keep as much hamon as possible, maybe even retempering the tip?.....

You cannot retemper a part of a blade. Trying this would always produce a non-tempered zone in the blade.

[Brian]

I don't see any hamon in the turnback...only hadori work.

 

Brian

[Eric H]

It is neither a Hanagatana nor a sword for use to cut off the head.

 

Eric

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Agreed with Mister bowen, i've seen one like this at Inami's shop.

[Jean]

I agree with Eric, were it a nata (kind of cleaver) the cutting edge should be where lies the mune (in the convex part of the blade ). Generally, old nata are usually, in size, not much longer than a sunobi tanto and mounted in aikuchi (tsubaless), in the best case. Nata is a real chopper.

 

You can find here modern version of nata:

 

http://billhooks.co.uk/catalogues/Japanese/

[cabowen]

There are literally dozens of different nata shapes for many different purposes (not all are made for rough chopping). Be that as it may, my point was that it is a tool made for some other purpose than that of a traditional wakizashi, and while unusual, they are seen from time to time.

 

The manner in which the shinogi curves to the edge tells me it was made this way, rather than a satsuma-age....

 

Nice to see we can agree on something Jacques!

[Jean]

  Quote

Said to be made for bonsai work, ikebana, etc

 

Not this one, it has a nagasa over 40cm. I have bonsai and I can assure you that in no books you will find this kind of instrument used in Bonzai art, and I doubt very much for Ikebana too.

 

 

I think it was make like this, some kind of instrument but not the one who some refer as head cutter. Too long and to slender.

 

Nata has to be defined as the examples provided as well by Chris as by Eric show a blade of the length of a sunobi tanto more or less and not instruments of more than 40 cm

 

I don't know the exact meaning of nata, but among the other thing significative, nata have (for all I have seen - 3/4 -) always the cutting edge on the convex part of the blade. I know another weapon with the cutting edge on the convex part of the blade which was famed to be a chopper, it is the Gurkha Kukri. There are a lot of similarities between nata and kukri including for some the notch at the base of the blade.

 

Read this article and see the similarities bewteen nata and kukri:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukri

 

 

edit to add: Natas I have seen were of Kata kiriha construction

[cabowen]

Who knows what it was made for, could be some kind of fish knife, thatch trimmer, etc....

 

I agree it is perhaps too long for a typical nata, but length aside, as I said, there are many types of nata, not all have a curved blade, or a cutting edge on the inside edge. Here is one I picked up last year when I was in Japan to split kindling.....

 

Maybe we will never know for certain what the intended purpose is of this particular blade, but I feel comfortable assuming it is a tool of some sort....Perhaps one of our Japanese members has more information...

[Eric H]

  cabowen said:

If the boshi is genuine, then it is shaped like a nata. I have seen several of these and they are original. Said to be made for bonsai work, ikebana, etc. They are sometimes called "kubi-kiri", or neck cutters, for taking heads on the battlefield. That seems to be a Western invention.

 

Kubikiri Equipment

 

Keywords: Kubi Bukuro - Kubikiri - Kubi Oki

 

pic from another thread

 

Eric

[Chonmage]

A big thanks for all the help. I will sit down and read through it properly when I come home. The reason for this quick post is that I just got a call from the owner, I have reserved it but I have to make a decision about buying this or not within two days. After that it's back on the market. What could this be worth?

Based on it's oddity.

 

Thanks!

 

- Anders

[paulb]

I think you have highlighted the point its "oddity". Putting a price on it is very challenging because they arent seen on the open market much. I would suggest your starting point is what would it be worth if it were a bulk standard mid range quality wakazashi in this condition. You then take a substantial chunk off that value because it is going to have very limited appeal. As you suggest it has curiosity value but what is that worth?

I think the big problem is when wanting to move it on finding someone who finds its oddity value equally appealling.

[Brian]

I still don't believe it is original like that. Not 100% sure how/why it was altered...but look at that shinogi line in the kissaki and the cutting edge at the tip. They are not straight, and have inconsistencies in the lines. No smith would finish a sword like that, so some alteration has definitely happened using a grinder or stones. I am also not convinced that turnback consists of nioi or nie...there is a line that continues through the kissaki.

Whatever it is, you can be sure it wasn't originally made 100% like that.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

  Eric H said:

 

 

Kubikiri Equipment

 

Keywords: Kubi Bukuro - Kubikiri - Kubi Oki

 

pic from another thread

 

Eric

 

Can you now post a Japanese source?

[runagmc]

Brian, for what it's worth, I definitely see what you mean and think you may be right... I'm still not 100% sure. The shinogi could be ground down to make it curve downward at the tip like that...

It's hard to say for sure from these pictures...

The thing is, everything except the tip looks like a typical shinogi zukuri wakizashi...

[Eric H]

as I said „pic from another thread“ (on NMB)

Fresh out of the woodwork nihonto ?

a Japanese source about „Kubikiri Tanto“ ... your source

http://www.samurai-weapons.net/samurai- ... s-of-tanto

 

Eric

[cabowen]

http://www.samurai-weapons.net is a Japanese source?

 

Domain name: SAMURAI-WEAPONS.NET

 

Registrant Contact:

 

John Nelson ()

 

Fax:

PO Box 9019

Laguna Beach, CA 92652

US

 

Ummmm, no. Again, show me a Japanese source.....

[Brian]

Reminds me of an old work review... "..he takes ages to make his pointless" :lol:

Can we just say things nowdays instead of hinting or baiting. The point is....... kubikiri are not recognised in Japan..or......?

 

Brian

[cabowen]

I thought I was clear- that the notion these blades were used to remove heads seems to be a western invention.

 

Eric posted a page from a Western source claiming these are made for taking heads. I asked him for a Japanese source. He gave a link from a source I used for the picture I posted and claimed it was a Japanese source. I posted the domain owner's name and address (USA) which makes it clear that this source is not Japanese. I again asked for a genuine Japanese source that pictures and calls this type of blade a head remover. If anyone can find a Japanese source, I assume it will be Eric....That about sums it up....

[Chonmage]

I will be sure to get a picture of the nakago if I get another chance. It had one nakago-ana and unmistakably ha-agari-kuri-juri.

You've all been helpful so thanks for sharing ideas and opinions. I held this and examined it closely, there is no mistake:it was made this way.

Even if I would be wrong, the question that I really wanted answered comes up. What is this, and why is it made this way.

 

For those of you wondering if it is traditionally made or not, it had a torokusho issued showa 50.

It just seems like a lot of work for a simple tool. Mottainai.

[runagmc]

If it had a torokusho that means they must have considered it a weapon. A tool wouldn't need to be registered to own... right?

[Chonmage]

  paulb said:

I think you have highlighted the point its "oddity". Putting a price on it is very challenging because they arent seen on the open market much. I would suggest your starting point is what would it be worth if it were a bulk standard mid range quality wakazashi in this condition. You then take a substantial chunk off that value because it is going to have very limited appeal. As you suggest it has curiosity value but what is that worth?

I think the big problem is when wanting to move it on finding someone who finds its oddity value equally appealling.

 

Thanks, we think alike on this.

I didn't feel like buying it because the curiosity of it does not appeal that much to me. Having a blade you don't really want and can't move on... never putting myself there again.

[Chonmage]

  runagmc said:

If it had a torokusho that means they must have considered it a weapon. A tool wouldn't need to be registered to own... right?

Not quite so, friend. The blade length and if it is traditionally made or not are the key factors.

[almeister]

Possible heat treatment / noticeable difference in the width across the blade around that same centre area - unless it's the photos ????

Would certainly suggest serious consideration before purchasing .

Anders , at the end of the day - this is ann odd piece , do you feel you'd get your money back / or even any offers in time of sale ? It's in a flea market - how long has the owner been trying to get rid of it ? All the Best !

Cheers , Alan