Papered wakizashi signed yokoyama kodzuke daijō fujiwara su

[Jacques D.]

Mister Bowen,

 

Daisaku are not made by all students (only by the following generation or by the bests students) In case of a daisaku mei i think Kobayashi Yukinobu should have been more accurate.

[Curran]

Move to sword discussion group.

[cabowen]

Mister Bowen,

 

Daisaku are not made by all students (only by the following generation or by the bests students) In case of a daisaku mei i think Kobayashi Yukinobu should have been more accurate.

 

 

I didn't say they were made by all students. Unless you were in the forge when this sword was made, you are only speculating when you say this isn't a workshop work. It is your opinion versus the opinion of the shinsa team. I would suggest they are in a better position to offer an opinion.

 

By the way, daisaku and workshop work are rather loose in meaning. I have seen 3 or 4 deshi work on a single blade in a forge, with the head smith giving advice or suggestions when asked. Sometimes the yaki-ire was done by the head smith, but sometimes one of the deshi. When it comes to Sukesada groups, we know they had a real division of labor, much like the Seki sword factories. There are no hard and fast rules and things are not always as clearly defined as you might like.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

Mister Bowen

 

It is your opinion versus the opinion of the shinsa team. I would suggest they are in a better position to offer an opinion.

 

It is not a shinsa team but a single person and it seems i'm not the only one who have doubt about the reliability of this *shinsa team*

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9917&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[cabowen]

One person or a team, my point was that they have actually handled the sword and undoubtedly have a lot more experience than you do. Like all origami, it is an opinion. The fact is many of the Sukesada smiths ran a workshop. I would therefore conclude that it is a possibility rather than run down someone else's sword in their own sales thread.

[Brian]

We don't allow debates and discussions on for sale items. However, since this has turned into an interesting discussion, I hope the OP will bear with me, and repost the for sale item in that section where I will make sure it remains uncommented on, and I have moved this one to the Nihonto section.

 

Brian

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Mister Bowen

 

I have seen 3 or 4 deshi work on a single blade in a forge, with the head smith giving advice or suggestions when asked.

 

Can you say the same thing about the sword discussed here ? No. What we see is the only reference we have. This signature doesn't match a shoshin mei or a known daimei, that's all.

[Eric H]

This signature doesn't match a shoshin mei or a known daimei, that's all.

Bravo !...a never expected change of your earlier judgement on the mei.

 

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Eric,

 

I have asked you something earlier in this thread, I'm still waiting an answer.

[cabowen]

This signature doesn't match a shoshin mei or a known daimei, that's all.

 

Yes, that is all. It doesn't mean that it couldn't be workshop production as indicated and daimei by someone unknown to you.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

It doesn't mean that it couldn't be workshop production as indicated and daimei by someone unknown to you.

 

Speculation, nothing else. As already said, the reliability of this paper is questionable. I notice you are somewhat contradicting yourself, once, you say that shinsa team can make mistakes and here you argue this man is right.

[NihontoEurope]

A lot of Sukesada registered and probably not registered due to the inflation of Sukesadas. Saying that this blade is a genuine Sukesada blade and signed as such is not a bold statement.

 

Not very a GIMEIable smith anyway. I have only seen one obvious.

 

What do we have 55-60 Sukesada?

 

/Martin

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

A lot of Sukesada registered and probably not registered due to the inflation of Sukesadas

 

There is only one (and no more) Yokoyama Kozuke (no) Daijo Sukesada. The sword discussed here is signed Yokoyama Kozuke (no) daijo Sukesada, it must be either signed by the smith himself nor by his son (until it is proved that daimei by others students exist).

[cabowen]

Speculation, nothing else. As already said, the reliability of this paper is questionable. I notice you are somewhat contradicting yourself, once, you say that shinsa team can make mistakes and here you argue this man is right.

 

No, I am not arguing he is right. I am arguing that he could be right. And that he is in a much better position to evaluate the blade then you. You are welcome to your opinion but trashing someone's blade in their sales thread is poor manners in most forums.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I am arguing that he could be right

 

It's your right, but it's mine to argue the contrary and it has been already proved this appraiser was wrong (ie Magoroku Kanemoto). Based on that and on this signature it is reasonable having a doubt on it. Nothing more.

 

Business is business and in matter of sword i never trust a paper. I make my own opinion and, if i have a doubt i will let it aside. Buy the sword, not the paper, it is more preferable missing a good deal than buying a "forgery" (sorry but i don't find the good word). That needs knowledge and i encourage any body to acquire knowledge before swords.

 

It's my last word here.

[NihontoEurope]

Hi,

 

There is only one (and no more) Yokoyama Kozuke (no) Daijo Sukesada. The sword discussed here is signed Yokoyama Kozuke (no) daijo Sukesada, it must be either signed by the smith himself nor by his son (until it is proved that daimei by others students exist).

 

Jacques,

 

One argument here was "Daimei". The difference between Sukesada 6th and 9th is..7 and 8, inflation or not, if it is Daimei could it not have been signed by anyone?

 

/Martin

[cabowen]

f it is Daimei could it not have been signed by anyone?

 

/Martin

 

Yes. Exactly my point. We weren't in the shop that made the blade. We know Kozuke Daijo lived a long life and had students. We know there are daimei. Jacques, who hasn't seen the sword, prefers to dismiss it and simply call it gimei. The appraiser, who has seen it, and lots more, calls it workshop work. We can not know for certain.

[Christophe]

Dear all,

I followed carefully all exchanges on wakizachi I presented. Due to my little knowledge I am not involved in the discution, but I think that through them, I have learned a lot, again.

I want to thank you all for that.

Christophe

[Eric H]

As previously said the 7. gen. Yamato Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada, the adopted son of Kozuke Daijo, is known with dai-mei saku. The mei on your Wakizashi is definetely not by Kozuke Daijo, but it is, because papered as such by JTK, with certainty a „workshop“ production.

 

Eric