Stealing a Glance....

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

I came across a term “nusumi nozoki” literally "learn by stealing a glance" in connection with the traditional approach to training an apprentice in a traditional art or craft.

(Thanks due to John Marshall - American Fibre Artist)

 

We are encouraged today, to ask questions and take notes.

 

The old method it seems acknowledges that the very act of doing so hinders processes that will manifest themselves later with far greater accuracy and lasting meaning.

 

Words, thoughts, opinions get in the way of assimilating the essence of not what is seen to be done, but what is being done.

 

Discuss.......

 

Cheers

[Geraint]

Ah, Malcolm, what a question! I am sure that Ford will have some thoughts to offer from the privileged position of having both a Western apprenticeship and a Japanese experience. In the meantime, here is a link to some more detailed thinking; http://designfizzle.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/47/

 

Points to ponder:

 

Japanese, and indeed all other swordsmiths learned to manipulate the properties of steel empirically, a staggering achievement the more you think about it. Much of what they knew was what Polyani calls tacit knowledge, I know how to do it but I can't explain it. Put it this way, if I read a book on sword forging I can say that I know how to forge a sword, right up to the point where someone gives me a piece of tamahagane and a hammer, then it emerges that I know almost nothing of value.

 

A fairly modern western orthodoxy in the arts has been that skill/craft is a distraction and that there is no need to spend time learning in this way because you can "pick it up" from a book when you need it. Underscored by Grayson Perry, (if you don't know he will be easy to find), who says that he causes more trouble by placing a finely crafted pot in an art gallery than he does by turning up in a dress. We want to distinguish between art and craft for all sorts of reasons, Japanese aesthetics don't do this in the same way.

 

So much more to say but I will confine myself to this for the moment. Let's hope that others join the debate.

[Baka Gaijin]

Underscored by Grayson Perry, (if you don't know he will be easy to find)

 

Just look for Alan Measles.....

 

http://alanmeasles.posterous.com/

 

 

Pip Pip

[cabowen]

I recall a time at the smith Enomoto Sadayoshi's forge when he was cutting a mei. He son, Sadahito told me that when he was training and learning to cut mei, his father would send him out of the room to get tea or some other thing. He asked his father how he was suppose to learn how to cut mei if he could never watch. His father told him he should learn with his ears.

 

Many times I heard craftsman in Japan talk about "stealing" technique from their teacher. Because students are expected to steal from their teacher, perception and sensitivity are very important traits if one wishes to become a skilled craftsman in Japan.

[Geraint]

Interesting thought, Chris. One of the difficult things to teach in craft is what to focus your perceptions on. Sight, sound, feel, smell, taste; all can tell you when something is going well or not So in the case of Sadahito, if it doesn't sound right then it isn't right. These are the things that our Western perspective does not generally take into account.

 

I have also come across some very poetic descriptions about the right colour of the steel during forging and yakiire, one of the beauties of steel is that so much information is contained in the colour of the metal, from the selection of the right type of tamahagane to the control of the forging process. Similarly the polishing process relies on the selection of the correct stone, feel, sound and maybe even smell provide clues about what is and isn't right.

 

Fascinating stuff and adds to the wonder of our subject, don't you think?

[drjoe]

fwiw, it's much like this in swordsmanship. my teacher often says that unlike how we grow up learning not to cheat in school by copying the work of other students, in sword class we are supposed to constantly copy the movements of other (especially senior) students.

 

as an instructor myself who likes to explain things, i'm also often chided for talking too much, and not simply doing the technique repetitively with the students following along.

 

on the other hand, i can also think of one student who's been training for a couple of years now, and he seems to always have to turn his head to look at someone else to remember how to do the technique. if he can't watch, he tends to get stuck or lost. what's interesting though is when you ask him to teach something to a new student, without the ability to watch someone else anymore, he improves quite a bit. that seems to say something else about the evolution of one's development as an artist.

[Geraint]

Hi Joe.

 

Lots to think about in your post. I'm not a swordsman so forgive any misunderstandings. It is certainly true that the best way of learning something is to teach it. It's also true that for a primarily physical skill description is much less efficient than demonstration and practice. I've never met anyone who learnt to ride a bike by reading the manual.

 

Another feature of this is that people do learn and think in different ways, your student who seems to take a while to grasp things while others have moved on may be an example of this.

 

I am trying to see what this suggests about artists and their development. I think it is true to say that our Western idea of talent or having the knack is a smokescreen. Just been reading a book whose key message is that if you put in the hours you will get the results in any field of endeavor. We say that someone has a talent for art as if it is a gift from the gods whereas what we probably find is that they have spent hours and hours working on this talent. I think I am suggesting that an artist who made progress in their work by teaching others might think of themselves as a teacher rather than an artist. Perhaps the starting point of this thread helps here, stealing the skill means that the master is simply practicing their craft to the best of their ability. If you want to master it you had better copy everything including the dedication.

 

This sort of determination is exemplified by Kunihira Kawachi in his delightful book; "The Art of the Japanese Sword". He says, quite matter of factly, "I used to be left handed. But all the tools of my trade are made for right handed people. So I forced myself to become right handed."

 

Lots more to think about.

[drjoe]

Hi Joe.

We say that someone has a talent for art as if it is a gift from the gods whereas what we probably find is that they have spent hours and hours working on this talent.

 

a couple of random thoughts as a teacher and student of many things...

 

i remember in college thinking there were two kinds of good students -- those that worked hard and studied a lot, and those that were naturally brilliant and were able to grasp things readily. i was one of the ones who needed to work hard. in general i think we did better in school because it meant we cared a bit more (this is the dedication part), but i don't think that necessarily correlates with success later in life.

 

art may be a little different, since a lot of it seems to be about creativity. i think that there are innate characteristics that give some a significant leg up on certain things. some examples come to mind... some people can naturally draw, others can't. some can picture things very well in three dimensions, some can't. some of the great jazz musicians were said to be self-taught -- some never even learned to read music -- though that's not to say that they didn't practice for hours and hours -- they did. it's just that they did indeed have a special kind of talent that allowed them to learn or think in a different way. some of that -- probably most of it -- is based in our own individual neuronal wiring.

 

i sometimes think about this as it applies to nihonto appreciation. i remember writing my amazon review on the nagayama book on nihonto. i read that book trying to learn as much as i could, but without high-definition photos showing what was meant in the text, it had limited utility for me at the time. in my review, i talked about how that doesn't detract from the book necessarily -- you can't really expect to learn auto mechanics, or how to read an EKG, but just reading books. so, definitely there's a key aspect of learning how to do something that requires actually seeing and doing.

 

learning about nihonto is difficult -- i have all the english language books and a few Japanese texts with great pictures and i drive 300 miles to token kai each year, but i feel like i hardly know anything. most books lack the kind of great pictures that are really needed to illustrate things, whereas up close at token kai, there's no accompanying text. there are a few people i now know that i talk to, but a certain degree of social anxiety, as well as embarassment when people start talking about specific smiths, schools, etc. that i have no idea about, inhibits me from learning more. the best solution would be to join the local club and learn from experts, but this is both intimidating and requires more interest and dedication that i seem to have.

 

i was thinking about buying a copy of a recent dai token ichi catalog that was for sale for something like $20 this year, but there was no english text whatsoever. so, i didn't think it would be helpful. the seller said, well, you have to learn. i'm not totally sure what he meant -- but learning Japanese seemed like more than i was able to commit. so, it's back to dedication again.

 

i'm continually humbled in life by the amount of dedication and practice needed to get good at something. i have so many interests that i tend to be more of a jack of all trades, master of none (or few). the truth is that i wish it was as easy to learn as it was in "the matrix" ("i know kung fu!"), but it isn't. for whatever reason, i think many of us feel that we can just pick something up on our own (by reading a book, watching a youtube video, etc.), and some are more able to do this than others (again, the innate part). but at the same time, dedication and practice will always be needed for mastery, and actually taking lessons and learning from a good teacher seems vital to avoid self-delusion (no wonder then that swordmakers revere Fudo Myoo, whose own sword cleaves such ignorance).

[Baka Gaijin]

Evening all,

 

I'll throw "Muscle memory and hard wire behavioural training" (by constant repetition of a movement or action) into the pot.

 

Cheers

[Geraint]

I had resisted that temptation Malcolm but I was pondering the differences between a craft activity and the sort of instinctive response that this sort of training produces. I know a little about the craft end of this but not so much about the military aspects of muscle memory. In craft their is a continuous feedback process going on which involves many sense at once as the worker adjusts by infinitesimal amounts what the next in a series of actions may be. Plannishing a piece of hollow ware the sight, sound and feel of each hammer blow in a series alters the next subtly, in cabinet work the same applies when planing for example.

To what degree is this feedback present in swordsmanship or the more contemporary military arts? I have always thought of them as useful in one time actions. Anyone?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Believe it or not, most engineering is done the same way - through "feel" as much as book knowledge & experience.

 

Ken

[drjoe]

this discussion reminded me of this video, which i found amusing (at least the first 2/3 or so before it degenerates)...

 

[Nihonto Chicken]

Here's a small element from my own experience to throw into the pot, FWIW. Many moons ago I bought a Lohman polishing kit (stand by, don't lose it yet!) that I used up on three rusty Seki and Showa stamped gunto (whew!). One of the most common (and most efficiently destructive) errors made by amateur polishers is to round off the shinogi. I was quite careful to avoid this, particularly with the first stone, it being the fastest cutting and its action perpendicular to the ridge line. Note I was using a rocking motion to preserve the clamshell curve in the ji. I wasn't flat grinding, so it was therefore tougher to keep from over-running the shinogi. With practice I could tell when coming up on the shinogi by both the change of the feel of the grit and the change in the pitch of the grinding sound. I felt I did a credible job on the foundation polish, maybe less well on the finish polish. I determined that I don't want to be a polisher, it's a long, messy and tough job. But I did learn some things such as the item above, also how to keep the stone surface flat while polishing (non-traditional! ).