My Japanese Sword New Polish Wakizashi Stout Naginata Naoshi

[bmoore1322]

Okay, it came in the mail today, and i have to say it is better in person then what the pics show of it.

 

It is an unsigned blade, with great Hada, and really nice hamon.

 

The polish on it is new, and definitely shows it.

 

Let me know what you all think of it, as this one will be shipped for papers.

 

What crest / Mon do you think it is.

 

This is what i know about it;

 

The blade is newly polished and you can see Itame-Mokume pattern on the Jihada, Masame on the Mune part. The blade is very thick (8mm on the center Mune line) and wide (3.5cm), so it is gorgeous. The blade seems to be early Shinto but could be Koto, overall it is very healthy and has no nicks, no openings, but one very tiny dark spot on the Jihada.

 

 

 

The beauty of this Wakizashi is the stout Handachi (semi-Tachi style) Koshirae mount, all complete and original except new Tsukamaki rapping. All the metal fittings such as Fuchi-Kashira, Tsuba, Koiguchi, Kurikata, Kojiri are all original iron made. There are Kamon, or silver family crest of leaves on both Fuchi and Kashira, which indicates that this sword was owned by high rank Samurai family. Tsuba guard is iron Sukashi, pierced, with a lovely design of deer and maple leaves. Saya scabbard has nice original dark gray lacquer throughout but has a couple of tiny chips.

 

 

 

Kozuka seems very old and its design is somewhat worn but letters are readable which encourage people to keep humble life style avoiding luxury. Menuki is large nice dragon made of brass. Habaki is Gin-gise, or silver covering copper base. Total length of the sword including Koshirae is 61cm(24inches).

 

 

Thanks

Brian

[bmoore1322]

More pics.

 

Brian

[bmoore1322]

More pics.

 

Brian

[bmoore1322]

Last pic for now.

 

Brian

[paulb]

Brian,

I will leave it to others with greater knowledge to comment on the fittings but I like the look of the blade.

What were you told about it by the seller? My initial reaction looking at the sunagashi and masame running in to the hamon is that it has a lot in common with some Yamato shikkaki pieces I have seen. Taake a close look at the boshi and see if there are lines of nie running through it. You are looking for an effect like"an old mans beard". Hada looks good good. One note of caution is waht looks like an opening in the hamon towards the kissaki.

As always depends what you bought it as and how much it cost you and of course are you pleased with it. but overall I think the blade looks good.

Edit: looked again at the pictures and notice there appears to be a strong turn back on the boshi which is unusual in a naginata naoshi as the turn back is usually lost when the blade is reshaped. Interested in others view but is this possible a wakazashi made to look like a naginata naoshi? if so why would the maker do something so obviously strange as put a return on the boshi?

Whatever the reason it looks to be an interesting work and I think you can learn a lot form it

[Baka Gaijin]

Good afternoon Brian,

 

There is a Kamon composed of three groups of three Sasa (bamboo leaves) called Kyumai Sasa.

 

The subject of the Kodzuka may be a reference to Takasago, which is a Noh play

 

http://www.the-noh.com/en/plays/data/program_015.html

 

Cheers

[bmoore1322]

@ Malcolm

 

 

Thanks, and this is what i found out, and would this add some historical value to the sword;

 

 

http://www.makie-sticker.com/product/219

 

 

Thanks

Brian

[sanjuro]

Paulb.

 

Naginata naoshi, as far as my understanding goes, does not necessarily indicate a reshaped naginata, but is also a style of blade.

This current blade of Brian's puts me in mind of Mino work. I have a similar blade which is later Shimada school after the school moved to Mino province.

 

Yes.... Of course I could be wrong!

 

Brian.

On the upside from your point of view, it is a blade that merits collecting and has some presence to it. Keep it up Brian, you are progressing through the pain barrier. In comparison to the swords you originally started posting, this latest acquisition is streets ahead. :D

[paulb]

Hi Keith

God forbid we should get in to another definition debate but my understanding of the term was exactly that it was a reshaped naginata. One of of us might be right or of course we could both be wrong (happens more often than not!)

Understand the Mino call and of course Mino's origins are in Yamto albeit Tegai rather than Shikkake. Looking at the boshi and the lines of sunagashi do still push the Yamato buttons for me.

Brian

looking at the hamon is there a lot of nie running through it? I can tell from the images but that would be a significant factor in anty attribution

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I see an u-no-kubi zukuri wakizashi (likely ubu) and not a naginata naoshi blade.

[paulb]

Hi Jacques,

I think you are absolutely right. I fooled myself into thinking I saw a naginata-hi in the first image but looking again it isnt there (must cut down on the cooking time scotch).

[bmoore1322]

The only reason why i was thinking it was a cut down Naginata, it is not signed, and the blade does resemble an naginata.

 

@ Paul on the boshi, it looks like there are lines of nie running through it, the hada is present throughout the blade and really nice.

 

Like i said before it will be sent off for papering for sure.

 

Brian

[paulb]

Brian,

I think you did well on this one. I like the shape and the hada. The reason you thought it was a cut down naginata is that the shape Jacques describes was, I think, produced to some extent to imitate just that. I have attached below an image of a Naginata naoshi. This dates from the mid 14th century. You will see the naiginata hi and the fact that the boshi has no return.

When all this is said your balde is still an interesting piece and as I think Keith said significantly better than most of the pieces you have bought before.

Before thinking of having it papered look at it in great detail, understand all the features and try and decide for yourself what you are lookng at. Then the papering exercise should be used to confirm what you have already decided.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Brian,

 

The only reason why i was thinking it was a cut down Naginata, it is not signed, and the blade does resemble an naginata.

 

 

You have an urgent need of learning, if i were you i will begin by the beginning : books + see as much swords (preferably high end ones) as i can.

[drbvac]

Much better and I gotta say I wish I had your budget for Nihonto and the time to look, assess and acquire the pieces you have in the last month - must be like Christmas at your place every time the mail arrives.

 

I am sure you already have more nihonto than my 25 years have been able to get my hand on and I haven't been really cheap in the purchase prices!!

 

Did you ever consider the type of treasure you could have if all the money you have spent to date was on 1 beauty >?

 

I have a bunch that if I sold them all for what I paid for them I could have a real heirloom for my kids rather than a bunch of steel they won't know how or want to sell off !

 

Lucky man @@

[bmoore1322]

@ drbvac

 

 

Yes, I look forward to getting the mail everyday, My postal carrier like it too, as he ask me every time, got another sword, can i see it, so of course i open up the package, he looks it over , I like him doing this, as it adds a little bit of protection, because if I open up a box, and the sword is not there, i can and will use him as a witness.

 

I'm up to about 10 swords now, i had to order a 10 sword rack off eBay this week, so that i will have a place for each and everyone of them.

 

Yes, i thought about 1 sword of great value, or 10 swords of really good historical value, it has crossed my mind quite a few times, I think this one will yield some very historical value since it looks like by the MON / crest on it, it has some interesting history , with a great battle lineage.

 

Link :

 

http://www.makie-sticker.com/product/219

 

 

 

 

Brian

[Jean]

As it is from the pictures, I see a shobu zukuri wakizashi blade, at most kanmuri Otoshi, late Muromachi, Mino influence, I'll go to Kanabo school. I think the blade is at least suriage or O suriage. The nakago jiri is kiri (really square and not slightly roundish) and the yasurime are kiri, both are commonly encountered on O suriage koto blades.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Shobu-zukuri is correct (i made a hiatus) but i disagree with the suriage option (hamon ends normally near the hamachi)

[Jorgensen]

Hi Brian,

 

Nice one. Very appealing look, seems to a good strong blade (with a minor opening, nothing serious imo). This is what I see:

- blade has nice hamon, hada, polish and polishers signature. very thick and VERY wide. Great!

- descent koshirae (mounting)

- fuchi/kashira with mon that matches

- nice habaki and tsuba.

 

From the pictures - I do not think the saya with the handachi style fittings matches tsuka and its fittings - usually f/k will be same style. The kodzuka I dont think matches rest of fittings either, but nice old kodzuka anyways! Wrap and same seems to be new, so does sageo indeed and I have hard telling from the pictures if menuki is of newer date also.

 

Just to say this way, its very common to find swords and koshirae that is composed with different parts and you should always pay attention and be able to look at a sword and its koshirae and make a statement of this. The more complete, the higher value. Just to give you a good advise on the way

 

About blade, I just had the thought if it could it be a nagamaki blade, rather than a Naginata Naoshi or wakizashi made in naginata style?

 

With above said, nothing to worry about. I think its a very nice sword you have got there - I like it, the shape and width of blade and like the mon's on f/k - and you have really done improvement in short time. Congratulations Brian.

 

Thx for sharing the pictures btw. =)

[Jean]

Lapsus not Hiatus, Jacques,

 

In fact, the picture does not really shows anything concerning the hamon. the fact that it seems to end after the hamachi is neither complete nor conclusive (All of you Guys, you should really read E.E. Doc Smith's Lensman series), here is a picture of my Tametsugu taken by Darcy, O suriage mumei. As shown in the picture the hamon seems to stop after entering the nakago.

 

In your books, Jacques, how many sue koto schools or shinto schools have both features: Nakago: Kiri Jiri and Kiri yasurime, these couple with the hada description? Here I play the odds

[bmoore1322]

More pics of the Boshi, and the Kissaki, and file marks on the Nakago, and the Hamon running all the way down into it also.

 

I did notice that the Seppa's are gold foil covered, really nice to know that also.

 

 

Brian

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning Brian,

 

I think this one will yield some very historical value since it looks like by the MON / crest on it, it has some interesting history , with a great battle lineage.

 

Unless there is actual documentary evidence to link the Koshirae with the blade, no connection with either the Kamon, its previous owner and the history of the blade can be confirmed.

 

So whilst it is fine to speculate on the past history of an item, it can only be speculation.

 

That's where the Gunto with a Kamon on the kabutogane is relatively reasonable to relate to its previous owner.

 

The rules on the use of Kamon were becoming slightly relaxed by the end of the Bakumatsu.

 

By the time you get into Meiji Jidai (1868 - 1912) the situation regarding Kamon is quite free.

 

There are several books on Kamon:

 

http://store.doverpublications.com/0486422739.html

 

Cheers

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Lapsus not Hiatus, Jacques,

 

 

Ooops another one

[Jean]

You are perhaps right about this, Jacques, taking into account these new pictures, but I am very wary as polishers are very good at hadori window dressing.

 

Edit to add: After discussing the blade by PM with Jacques, there is an other hypothesis which is the following, it could be a shinshinto blade made to look like a koto suriage blade. This is possible as it has been done at this time for a lot of blades, but all blades I have seen generally (at more than 95%) were cut down tachi copy. What will be the interest to do it for wakizashi which were not so much prized? Of course it could have been done for export purposes.

 

What do you think of this hypothesis?

 

Anyway, I will be very interested by the shinsa result.

[Geraint]

Looking good Brian.

 

Very surprised to see your blade described as unokubi zukuri though. (Already covered I see, posts crossing.)

 

No one has answered your question about the value in relation to the mon. I think unless you have a documented connection with a daimyo family then the use of a mon is not significant, unless the koshirae is of startlingly high quality. (Again, already covered, ah well!)

Enjoy!

[Jean]

Geraint,

 

Jacques meant shobu zukuri, he just made a lapsus.

[Geraint]

Thanks Jean, had a coffee before replying and didn't refresh the page. Nice to see another Lensman reader by the way.

[Marius]

Jacques is absolutely right. The boshi has a kaeri, while cut down naginata have yakizume boshi.

 

(sorry, I see Paul has noticed this already)

[Marius]

I'm up to about 10 swords now, i had to order a 10 sword rack off eBay this week, so that i will have a place for each and everyone of them.

 

Yes, i thought about 1 sword of great value, or 10 swords of really good historical value, it has crossed my mind quite a few times, I think this one will yield some very historical value since it looks like by the MON / crest on it, it has some interesting history , with a great battle lineage.

 

You will have 20 soon, so forget about the rack There might come a moment when you will want to sell most of the swords you have to buy something better. But by that time you will know what "better" means. Hopefully your purchases will allow you to get the knowledge needed.

 

I think you would benefit from a mentor who guides you and shows you why great swords are great. Putting your next 10 purchases on the NMB will not give you great insights, just attributions based on pictures.

 

Most collectors you meet here on the NMB would encourage you to slow down with your purchases and learn instead of acquiring more swords (some of which you seem to hope might turn out "important" pieces). Some people here have already given you this advice, in a subtle way like Dr. Barrett and in a very direct way, like Jacques.

 

Of course it is for you to decide what to do.

 

Having said that, may I add that what you have acquired here is a good sword in good polish. And it will give you some opportunity to learn. Papering it is a good idea, maybe you should try to research it first?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Jacques is absolutely right. The boshi has a kaeri, while cut down naginata have yakizume boshi.

 

This boshi does have a fairly normal looking turnback and it does not appear that it might have extended out more at one time.

 

A second point here is that each individual case must be determined independently as far as cut down naginata ending in a yakizume boshi, as there are exceptions. The same can be said for the shinogi being moved on naginata naoshi.