Similar swords?

[SwordGuyJoe]

Understood guys. I know that a couple/few years ago, when it was found that topics questioning or raising questions about authenticity, value, translation (or questioning translation), mei vs. gimei, etc. were locked down quickly. If something changed, I didn't know. I was just surprised was all and regardless of who the seller is, if an active auction in called into question whether legitimately or not (like advice by a novice or even my level: novice+ / intermediate-) it may cause people who would have bid to reconsider. A good thing if the sword is not legitimate, a bad thing if not.

 

I remember a similar thread involving a "showa22" sword that went south. I'll shut up now.

 

[drbvac]

Joe: Your recall is pretty good as far as I can remember as well and I am sure although some may be more interested as these for Iai a lot more would just pass following the comments whether they are correct or not. As well - having written Mike - no one said anything regarding any of these blades that he would argue with.

 

That said - if the forum were to "critique" or analyze many offerings on e-bay or anywhere else while they are active there is no doubt that the comments will affect both the interest and the bidding so

 

Maybe there should be a position that comments of any kind are really not appropriate for active listings OR if asked by a potential buyer - what do you do then.

 

THe only point is that comments from this crew will have an effect - both good and bad

[SwordGuyJoe]

Agreed and my point exactly

[David Flynn]

So sellers should be protected, but not buyers?

[drbvac]

I don't know - its just I am not sure that this is the place to do either or else we would be doing nothing else - we are a small group relative to the folks shopping on e-bay but I recall at one time there were buyers who would put their prospective purchases on here ever week asking what they were worth or if any good and that got silly as well.

 

I do know that the seller of the blades under discussion was quite happy to get the attention and extra promotion good or bad so maybe thats why we shouldn't comment on any - well at least the "real" Nihinto

[David Flynn]

If people put things up for sale, why shouldn't one be allowed to ask questions and give opinions? Don't we ask our friends opinions?

[cabowen]

Ebay at one point (might still) had a rule about discussion of active auctions on public forums. People can manipulate prices up or down with comments. I refused to allow discussion for this reason of active auctions on my token kenkyu kai list.

 

The PM function would seem well suited for private discussions of this type....

[drbvac]

Works for me

[drjoe]

i'm just a beginner here, but it seems to me the rules of this subforum are well stated in the sticky, and that accordingly members tend to limit themselves to comments about the blade itself.

 

although i have no delusion of finding an undiscovered national treasure on ebay, or really even using ebay at all to purchase a nihonto, i do enjoy perusing the listings there on a regular basis and i have started several similar threads inquiring about whether items are as represented or to corroborate doubts and suspicions i've had. this has been an invaluable service to a beginner who is learning, so i'd like to see it continue for active listings.

 

as noted, it seems like commenting could affect price in either direction, but it also seems to me that the risks of commenting on a sale are still present once the sale is complete (e.g. buyer purchases blade, asks about it here, decides based on comments something is gimei or crap, then demands a refund, and then maybe the blade eventually gets reposted).

[Kam]

I see no problem with questions especially with ebay. . I have a funny story to tell, but in a different thread. . the problem is when an opinion is stated with little to no knowledge. I think discussion is healthy and a great learning tool as Joe P pointed out but when loose statements are made with little to no insight like Joe P made about low quality Shinsakuto, then that effects the sale and therefore some fore thought before commenting would be wise.

I looked at Katsurugi's items and could not comment about quality because it would be hard to judge based of his pics. On my listing I have shown pics of detail, hamon , hada etc all well executed. . . where is the low quality?

If smith X is unknown today and wins the shinsakuto competition tommorow are his blades transformed from low quality to high overnight?. . . just a thought.

Should we as collectors be buying blades with quality not buying the mei? If the blade is average but the mei is shoshin Nagamitsu (and I have seen a few average quality blades from him) why buy it at such a high price? It seems things get so caught up thinking inside the parameters of the collecting box that collectors get a bit stuffy and dont look at the bigger picture. I would personally prefer to own the blade in the pic made by an unknown (nthk could find nothing on this smith) than some muji hada Nagamitsu.

 

Kam

[drjoe]

I see no problem with questions especially with ebay. . I have a funny story to tell, but in a different thread. . the problem is when an opinion is stated with little to no knowledge. I think discussion is healthy and a great learning tool as Joe P pointed out but when loose statements are made with little to no insight like Joe P made about low quality Shinsakuto, then that effects the sale and therefore some fore thought before commenting would be wise.

 

touche, though technically i said "low grade," not "low quality," by which i simply meant gendaito/shinsakuto that seem more in the "dojo" than "art" category, as reflected by both their appearance and the asking price and/or low starting bids.

 

in any case, i do apologize for posting a link to your blade and drawing it into this conversation.

 

in my view, gimei or not (and i am in no way suggesting anything about yours), all of the blades we've mentioned are currently being offered at bargain prices.

[Kam]

I to agree that at these prices the ebay buying market is getting things a little to good. Unfortunately this then leads to the thinking that this is what the current market value is, which obviously it is not. i have had some silly offers made for the blade I am offering which isnt surprising as this is human nature but when things are already this cheap. . . .

Joe P I was by no means offended by your comment it was only an after thought when reading a few of the other comments about the impact on sales. I also think some great artisans go unnoticed due to the "Nike" buying public. I am concerned also for the continuation of Nihonto production due to not only the economic climate (it comes and goes) but cheap copies and prejudice from the buying public.

 

Kam

[drjoe]

I to agree that at these prices the ebay buying market is getting things a little to good. Unfortunately this then leads to the thinking that this is what the current market value is, which obviously it is not.

 

well, the beauty of a free market economy is that the current market value is whatever the blades actually sell for, no more or less.

 

at the same time, i agree that offering and selling blades at prices that are so low that they undermine the sustainability of the artform is a bad idea. but then i've also heard that some smiths complain about the 2 blade/month limit and argue that this prevents them from making a living. if what's being discussed in this thread is true, it suggests that smiths may be revolting against this edict, and that more production could drive prices down but also bring in more income for smiths and make it more profitable for them. that's not necessarily a bad thing, though it could likely adversely affect quality. then there's also the angle that if more people can afford swords as they become cheaper, there will be more demand and eventually great appreciation for the art in general, which may also be vital for sustainability.

 

anyway, this is all kind of off topic. i'm glad you weren't offended. it will be curious to see how much these blades go for. it has made me think about bidding on a couple of these blades, if only to attempt to sell them elsewhere for a sum more akin to what i think they're really worth.

[Tcat]

then there's also the angle that if more people can afford swords as they become cheaper, there will be more demand and eventually great appreciation for the art in general, which may also be vital for sustainability.

 

This, I think, is a very important point and one that seems to be completely missed by the Japanese cultural preservation authorities, the result of which is a market for the thousands of imitation Japanese swords made in China and south east Asia every year, some which sell for approaching $2000. If the imposed monthly limit was changed, Japanese swordsmiths would almost certainly be able to take back a considerable piece of this market for themselves. Try telling that to the cultural authorities.

 

The silver lining to this cloud however is that many who start with an interest in owning a Chinatana eventually broaden their understanding of Japanese swords in general, and when ready (perhaps financially or mentally) start in on the real thing. I for one.

[runagmc]

I to agree that at these prices the ebay buying market is getting things a little to good. Unfortunately this then leads to the thinking that this is what the current market value is, which obviously it is not. i have had some silly offers made for the blade I am offering which isnt surprising as this is human nature but when things are already this cheap. . . . Joe P I was by no means offended by your comment it was only an after thought when reading a few of the other comments about the impact on sales. I also think some great artisans go unnoticed due to the "Nike" buying public. I am concerned also for the continuation of Nihonto production due to not only the economic climate (it comes and goes) but cheap copies and prejudice from the buying public.

 

Kam

You have to remember that in a lot of cases, bidding on a sword on ebay is a gamble for a buyer -especially if the seller doesn't allow returns. The buyer could end up paying way over what a sword is worth if the sword is found to have flaws that weren't clearly pointed out in the listing.

 

I bought a sword off ebay from a member of this forum not long ago, and found multiple serious flaws that didn't show in the pictures, and apparently weren't spotted by the seller. He allowed me to return the sword for a full refund even though it said "no returns" on his listing. If he had decided not to work with me and that the sale was final, I would have lost that gamble.

 

Normally, I wouldn't even bid on a sword where the seller doesn't allow returns - it doesn't matter how good of a deal it seems to be. In this case it seemed safe, since I thought the seller was knowledgeable. Also, he had previously listed the sword on the NMB sales page (which was the only reason I even knew about it)before he put it on ebay - and for WAY more money than I ended up paying in the auction - so I thought it was a safe deal.

 

Anyway my point is, you can't expect to get full market value on ebay if you don't allow for in hand inspection and have a return policy.

 

And Kam, this is not directed at you, since I haven't looked at your listing and don't know if you except returns or not. It's just meant as a general observation...

[Kam]

I view selling and buying on Ebay as a completely different ball game to real world buying and selling. . . a "sims" like concept, unrealistic prices in either direction.

When selling Nihonto in real world market the value the seller feels is applicable for the item is what he/she lists it as, they may then not sell that item for some time until someone comes along and says I want that item and I am willing to pay that price. When selling on ebay it is to make a quick and generally guaranteed sale, but usually with a huge price cut.

When shopping on ebay we know there are risks and they are risks we accept when bidding and it is these risks we take into consideration when we submit our highest bid. Ebay is a place that we hope to find a bargain and peoples highest bids reflect this mentality. On the other end of the spectrum we have no-brainer bids on items that have more questions than they have answers - eg Mike ( Komonjo) listed a Naginatazukuri in what appeared to be in Binsui stage of polishing, he was very clear about it's condition and stated he did not know why it was never finished. He had pointed out that it was signed "yasutoshi" and that it might be from "Kenpaku Yasutoshi" - easy to check as his mei is in sloughs book - obviously no one bothered to check (it was not his mei) as despite all it had wrong it still sold for $1200US another blade shinshinto in good condition with koshirae did not get a bid at $1500. . . only at ebay world.

And this is why in a nutshell I feel ebay does not reflect true market value.

As for offering return policies I no longer offer that option as we have been screwed from both customers and paypal. . and not as much as a dinner first. I list as best as to my knowledge and I over emphasize any flaws. . . still some people will find one way or another to take you from behind . Anything I sell on my website or privately has a return policy.

Had a lot more to say about this subject but I have to answer questions from ebay listings that have already finished??

 

Kam

[sencho]

items that have more questions than they have answers - eg Mike ( Komonjo) listed a Naginatazukuri in what appeared to be in Binsui stage of polishing, he was very clear about it's condition and stated he did not know why it was never finished. He had pointed out that it was signed "yasutoshi" and that it might be from "Kenpaku Yasutoshi" - easy to check as his mei is in sloughs book - obviously no one bothered to check (it was not his mei) as despite all it had wrong it still sold for $1200US another blade shinshinto in good condition with koshirae did not get a bid at $1500. . . only at ebay world....

 

 

Mike is a good guy and I have never seen him embellish his listings... he tells it how it is and if someone wants to pay top dollar for things without doing their due diligence, that is their problem...

 

He is in business, plain and simple and his job is to sell stuff; not educate morons who do not read the description and are living in their own fantasy world...

 

Luckily he is one of the more scrupulous nihonto sellers on ebay and a very amiable person to do business with.

[drjoe]

now that everything's sold, i'm surprised that no one speculated that something might have been made in china...

 

there's that thick lamination line...

 

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7736

[David Flynn]

Well, myself and another member of this board discussed this issue. We both thought it very likely that they were chinese. However, just going by photos. Both of us decided to use discretion and keep it to ourselves.

[sencho]

 

I would be very surprised if Mike sold anything Chinese without disclosing the fact.

 

I don't believe it.

[Brian]

Me too. But in the (unlikely event) that Chinese swords (made by expat Japanese smiths??) did end up for sale like this, I would suggest that Mike or any other seller would have no idea. Swords like this would be shipped to Japan and get registration papers like any other imported Nihonto, and then filter down until they end up for sale, unknowingly by sellers who might re-export them from Japan.

 

Brian

[David Flynn]

Brian, these don't look like " Expat" swords, they look like high class Chinese copies. We saw an example of these at the Sydney Shinsa, last year. They look Japanese, but just, not quite right.

[Alan Morton]

I think your Right Dave,

 

and everybody is tip toeing around an alkward situation.

 

In other similar situations the " Fasion Police" on NMB would

 

have torn strips off other sellers.

 

Chinese, I don"t know but they don't look like we expect Japanese to

 

look like and here on the NMB everybody gives kantai on all swords

 

from Koto to Shinsaka To

 

Alan

[sencho]

 

In other similar situations the " Fasion Police" on NMB would

 

have torn strips off other sellers.

 

 

Yes quite, but Mike has a very good reputation for being an honest and upstanding ebay seller of Nihonto... plus he has been around for a long time and done business with many people on the board...

 

Therefore he gets a little latitude, where as the bottom feeding hawkers of any old rusty tat, get a good and merciless going over...

 

Only one way to find out about these and that is to ask Mike.

[David Flynn]

Well as yet, there has been no reply.

[george trotter]

I am no expert as is well known, but I would be prepared say that the first sword signed "Heianjo Minamoto Sukemitsu looks "right" in the nakago details (yasuri, kesho, jiri and mei structure and reading) for the Osaka Okishiba line ( this guy lived Omi, name Takeshita, student of 2dai Okishiba Masastugu and his own father of the same name), the only thing is that he is described as signing in his own individual way (not like this) and that he had wild midare.

While these descriptions seem "right" and "wrong" at the same time, it is possible that this is a sword made when he was a student of Okishiba Masatsugu, but then again, it looks a bit too "new".... would I buy it?...no.

 

Having said all this I would not have picked this for a Chinese made sword...the others I can't comment on regarding accuracy of nakago/mei /blade etc. It would be interesting to hear what Mike has to say...if he will do so.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards,

geo.