Naginata-Naoshi Style Blade Dilemma

[La Espada Ancha]

Hello,

 

Several (4-5?) years ago I picked it up a group of pieces in LA. Among them was this. I didn't recognize it as a naginata blade at the time - nor did I recognize it as unokubi zukuri, but due to the ihori-mune, habaki, the blade geometry (to a lessor degree), and the presence of a single fastener securing the grip to the tang (indicating a mekugi ani), I was fairly certain it was Japanese (did the Koreans ever adapt the naginata form as a polearm?).

 

Skip ahead a few years and through osmosis I now recognize a unokubi zukuri blade, so while looking for another edged weapon recently, I thought about this again and decided to revisit it.

 

As you can see in the pictures, it is mounted in a odd mix of materials. The grip is a single piece of wood, painted black, secured through the mekugi ani with a flathead screw and a square nut. There are remnants of a foliate/vine pattern in black lacquer on the grip, visible now only on the reverse. The square nut reminds me of fasteners I see on (late) 18th C. European items as diverse as a grog cup and a ceramic urn. Behind the (very short?) habaki is a ferrule (would this still be considered a fuchi?) made of bone or ivory, decorated with gold gilt (or paint) and the same foliate pattern in black lacquer present on the grip. The diamond-shaped cutouts look like they held an insert at one time.

 

There were two menuki, a pair of silver grasshoppers, attached with glue or resin. Neither myself nor the Mrs. remembers where they are, though I stand firmly by my assertion they have been Mrsplaced (<-- Freudian slip). There are bands of rattan (only a couple remain) and beneath that, more recent copper wire wound around the grip. Beneath the copper wire, a stag (smooth-filed bark stag) pommel caps the hilt. The top, like the ferrule, is covered in gold gilt or paint.

 

I have never unmounted it, though I did try to loosen the screw inserted through the mekugi ani (to no avail).

 

Not sure the following measurements are correctly labeled in this case, as I am unsure if there is a mune machi where the habaki meets the machi. But if it were, then the nagasa = 29.4 cm ( 11 9/6").

 

So here's my dillema:

 

I am first and foremost an encyclopedic edged weapon collector. If this is an indigenous mounting of any appreciable age - if for whatever reason this naginata was remounted as a tanto as shown, to be used as such anytime in WWII or before - then I intend to keep it as is.

 

If, however, it is the opinion of the board that this was the random assembly by some hack collector - much like the Soshu tanto I posted to the board last year - then I will have no qualms about drilling out that fastener and unmounting the blade.

 

So therefore I present this for the collective input – and collective wisdom – of the members here who - unlike me - actually know a thing or two about nihonto.

 

So is this a 'native' mount? Any information would be most appreciated.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thierry BERNARD]

imho look like an aïnu mount

[christianmalterre]

Dear Chris,

 

i used to have some of such in past.

The blade is Japanese(Kanbun-Shinto most probably)

All the rest is an artificially added construction so to fitt this blade for proper use.

It´s not an Japanese mounting!(equally not Ainu).

The Japs.had strong trade in this time,exporting blades to South East Asia,others as hired sailors,working for Dutch,Portuguese or Spaniard interests....

The Mounting does strong resemble Myanmar Bumese or Siamese taste and functionality.

The Ferrule is quite typical to be seen in those-equally the other used material.

The Knob(Screw) is an latter times artificially added construction-not original to the mounting.

Here,you had to refitt it with an Original South East asian one...

Interesting find-not but,that uncommon to see...

 

Christian

[nagamaki - Franco]

One more opinion. The tsuka looks to be Japanese Meiji period and would guess the habaki is too, all parts for the parts bin regardless. The threaded screw with square nut are junk hardware that has been added. Please come back and show us the nakago.

[NihontoEurope]

Hello,

 

I'm perhaps being a bit premature in my judgement, but it looks Chinese to me.

 

/Martin

[Grey Doffin]

I don't think the tsuka is of Nihonto heritage. Whether Ainu (as Thierry states, and that was my 1st impression) or elsewhere in Asia (as Christian states and which also makes sense) I can't say, but it doesn't look like anything done by a traditional koshirae maker.

I also agree that the nut and bolt are not original to the tsuka. It appears that originally there was a bone ring around a typical round mekugi-ana and that the rectangular recesses are later adaptations for the nut & bolt. Why rectangular on both sides and why the bolt doesn't appear to be centered on the mekugi-ana I can't say (possibly the tsuka wasn't originally made for this blade and the ana had to be relocated).

I think the blade and habaki are Nihonto and belong together.

If it were mine I'd remove the nut and bolt so I could see what I have with the nakago. If you do this be careful when drilling out the bolt that you don't let your bit touch the nakago. Also, if you do this, please post pictures of the nakago; be fun to see what you have.

Grey

[runagmc]

The wood used for the tsuka doesn't appear to be the traditional magnolia (ho or nurizaya), so mabey it's an amateur job.

 

I'm not sure about the sword. I can't say I've ever seen a Nihon-to quite like the sword posted here.

[Mark]

the blade may not be a naginata, it may be a Shinshinto blade made in that shape

[Marius]

Very short blade with deep curvature - torii zori. Typical naginata would be saki zori. Still, blade and habaki look Japanese. Interesting artifact. Mark is right - definitely not Koto.

[La Espada Ancha]

Thank you one and all for your input. I have enjoyed reading the discussion so much I plan to sit back silently and continue learning, as it has been highly educational. I only wish I had posted this sooner, as your replies have further stoked the fires of my own intellecutal curiosity.

 

That there are opinions this may be Ainu in origin leads me to lean towards leaving the construction as-is, at least for now, as any effort at disassembly will in all likelihood be irreversible. I rather error on the side of caution, and appreciate it as an ethnographic variant, even if it means retaining the 'mystery' of the unknown nakago.

 

Did Japan export blades as a function of trade? If so, when (was this a result of the peace that accompanied the Edo period?), with whom, and (predominantly) where? If there is a book (or website) someone can steer me towards that addresses Japanese trade routes during the Shogunate period, I would be very grateful. I've seem/read plenty of material addressing the aesthetics of Japanese culture, and from it know there was a long and rich history of trade and cultural exchange with dynastic China. Given the predominant presence of Chinese traders throughout SE Asia, were they known to ply Japanese wares (and cast-offs) through their established trading ports?

 

Regarding the attribution to SE Asia, I would also be very appreciative of any reference to similarly-hilted examples of imported blades, as I am familiar with Burmese and Siamese dhas and own several (about as many dha-lwes and dha-hmyaung as I own nihonto), and can't say I've ever seen a similar mounting nor an imported Japanese blade mounted in this region of SE Asia. The Kachin, Karen, Shan, and other regional ethnic groups all had ready access to ores and smiths accomplished in their own right.

 

Thanks again one and all...

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

[ROKUJURO]

Chris,

 

As you mention Burma in this case, I may tell the story about the purchase of a NAGINATA.

 

I browsed a small antique shop in Germany and asked the shop owner for anything related to Japanese arms. When he said he had nothing of that kind, I asked for other Asian arms. 'I have got a blade that might interest you', he replied and took something long wrapped in textile out of a drawer. When he unpacked it, it looked absolutely like a NAGINATA to me. I said spontaneously: ' Oh, there is in fact something Japanese!' But he contradicted me and said it was a Burmese DHA.

 

To make a long story short, it WAS in fact a NAGINATA in mediocre condition mounted as a DHA, unfortunately signed GIMEI. I did not try to convince the shop owner and bought it as DHA at a better price.

[La Espada Ancha]

Just as an interesting footnote to Christian's post, for those interested in the contextual history, here is the link to the Wiki page on the Red Seal Trade, the foreign trade officially sanctioned by the Tokugawa Shogunate (though its existence is documented by Hideyoshi as well):

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_seal_ships

 

Here's a map of Japanese trade routes in the 17th century from the above link:

 

 

The idea of a hybrid one-off created by either a Japanese sailor or by another culture who gained possession of this through foreign trade intrigues me every bit as much as the possible Ainu attribution.

 

With regards to a possible attribution as a trade blade deposited as a function of Japanese trade routes, I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence the hilt style does not reflect Thai/pennisular SE Asian, Javanese, Indonesian, or Filipino tastes or aesthetics - I have quite a few edged weapons from a wide sampling of cultures indigenous to these regions - leaving me to believe that if it is a product of a local culture having obtained an imported blade, it would be from a region somewhere in the Far East.

 

I would think the use of a European-style fastener indicate the likely import of the fastener just as much as - if not more than - it might indicate the import of the blade. Just as a sidenote, the 'gestalt' of the piece originally spoke Korea to me, as while Japan didn't have a rich history of trade with Joseon dynastic Korea, they did have a rich history of military incursion.

 

In my attempts to find examples of Ainu weaponry, I found an example that shares the similar rattan binding similarly placed on the hilt and in the use of a ferrule of similar or equal diameter to the grip. After digesting the above posts for a few hours, it would seem the answer of attribution most certainly lies in the correct stylistic attribution of the hilt. The aforementioned decorative elements - to me - speak of an East Asian aesthetic.

 

Anyway, I hope the above comments encourage additional discussion about the piece, as I greatly enjoyed reading your collective thoughts the first time around.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

PS - Jean, I just noticed your post as I was previewing my own... Do you by chance still have any photographs of that dha-mounted naginata? I would very much like to see them if you do, as such cross-cultural artifacts really drive my passion for antique arms and armor, as they speak more accurately to the interwoven nature of our collective history.

 

With regards to the existence of dha-nihonto cross breads, I would never call into question the fact they did exist, but only that they weren't common - and in fact entirely uncommon - when compared to dhas of indigenous construction. And with regards to this particular example, there is nothing stylistically to suggest the hilt was created by any of the ethnographic groups who populated present day Myanmar or Thailand.

[ROKUJURO]

.....Do you by chance still have any photographs of that dha-mounted naginata? I would very much like to see them if you do, as such cross-cultural artifacts really drive my passion for antique arms and armor, as they speak more accurately to the interwoven nature of our collective history. .....

No, unfortunately I had to destroy the hilt in order to examine the NAKAGO. It was a long wooden hilt, I remember, at least twice the length of an appropriate TSUKA, and it was glued to the NAKAGO, secured with a kind of MEKUGI, and then wrapped with a relatively fine rattan in full length. A part of this wrapping was lost, the rest quite well in place but a bit loose. The shape of the hilt was typically wider at it's upper end approaching the blade.

 

The hilt was kind of crude workmanship compared to Japanese work, so I did not care to preserve it. The find is about 30 years back - yesterday........

[Jean]

I think this blade is a shinto wakizashi. I have at least seen 2 examples of this kind of sword in the past and I think one of them was the subject of a topic in our forum (years ago).

[Peter Bleed]

Chris and All,

Please let me contribute - bulk if not information - to this interesting thread.

As a collector of Ainu cutlery, I have often been shown rustic short swords like this one. They tend to have plain wood saya/tsuka, often they have roughly finished antler fittings, and they almost invariably have rattan wrapping around various parts of the tsuka and saya. Often they have NO metal kodogu, altho they tend to look "Japanese." They do NOT have the kinds of carved embellishments that are typical of Ainu knives and swords - brackets , cross-hatched "fish scale designs, and family mon. For that last reason, I am sure that these are NOT Ainu. These swords are essentially unlike anything I have seen in publications or museum displays on the Ainu.

So if they are not Ainu, what they might be?

My guess is that these swords were made in Japan, for use by the "MATAGI" who were specialized, rustic folks who survived as hunters and woodsmen. These are the guys who used those rustic matchlocks and non-samurai shooting kits that we see from time to time. These are almost always shoto that seem to have been used for lots of real world tasks. They're beat up -- "cowboy'd" as my western gun collecting friends describe well used firearms.

So, my vote is that this short sword is a re-purposed Japanese blade, fitted out in Japan, for a non-samurai people, but NOT for or by the Ainu.

Peter

[La Espada Ancha]

Thank you both Jean and Peter for your replies.

 

Peter, please let me express my gratitude for your helpful and most welcomed contribution, which has provided me with another 'launching point' for ethnographic investigation. It has long been inferred on another antique edged weapon forum that by corollary, a collector becomes an armchair ethnologist or historian. Having the oportunity now to learn about the Matagi is alone worth the proverbial price of admission, IMO, and for that I thank you.

 

The downside to this illuminating discussion is that I'm now kicking myself for having removed the menuki. Fortunately, this is reversible.

 

I now am further inclined to leave it in its current furniture, as IMO it is not worth irreversibly removing the history in order to see if I can learn more about the blade, as IMO the ends do not justify the means.

 

Jean, I have a quick question regarding the suggested waki attribution... In your esteemed opinion, what characteristics differnetiate a unokubi-zukuri naginata from a wakizashi of similar form?

 

Is the ratio of nagasa:sori (or the inverse) ever used to identify or attribute nihonto? Is this even recognized as a metric?

 

I guess that makes three questions, though I guess the latter two are also directed to the forum at large...

[nagamaki - Franco]

Peter, thanks for sharing those tid bits of obscurity not often heard.

[Jean]

Forget the naginata and go for the wakizashi

 

What has planted this idea it could a naginata?

 

The width of the naginata varies along its length. The sori is not the same as it has been already said, go to commercial websites and look up for naginata, you will see the difference in shape.

 

The ratio sori/nagasa has never been used to kantei a blade, there are too many exceptions in a given area for sori and length, (not talking about suriage/o suriage blade)

[IanB]

In the catalogue of the Danish Kunstkammer (Lundaek T N D, Ethnographic objects in the Royal Danish Kunstkammer 1650-1800) there are illustrations of several katana fitted with dha hilts. There are similar ones illustrated in the catalogue of the Hermitage Museum. These strange items have what seem to be standard katana blades and scabbards with kurigata, but with long (14" - 18" at a guess) black lacquered hilts that swell somewhat towards a rounded end. From memory I do not remember seeing any bindings or tsuba. Clearly these have a secondary origin in South East Asia, but whether the hilts are from that region, or from Japan, is difficult to say. There is also the matter of the imitation naginata. The Royal Armouries Museum has three of these weapons with what appear to be standard naginata blades mounted in black lacquered shafts. Itis there the resemblance ends. The shafts are round not oval, with sukashi tsuba of low grade shakudo in the form of multi petalled chrysanthemums. Below this is a section of metal tubes and rings, gilded and decorated with foliage. Whilst the blades look conventional, they have no real tang, just a short strip that is riveted into the shaft, and they are not hardened. I would suggest these items were specifically made for trade in SE Asia.

Ian Bottomley

[ROKUJURO]

......Jean, I have a quick question regarding the suggested waki attribution... In your esteemed opinion, what characteristics differentiate a unokubi-zukuri naginata from a wakizashi of similar form?

 

Is the ratio of nagasa:sori (or the inverse) ever used to identify or attribute nihonto? Is this even recognized as a metric? .....

'DAIMYO' Jean has already explained the criteria. Remains to add that in an altered NAGINATA you will not find a BOSHI (returning curve) as a lot of material of the tip has to be removed to create a blade of even width.

[La Espada Ancha]

Hello Ian and (both) Jean(s), and thank you all for your input. ('Daimyo') Jean, I appreciate the correction, and I have edited the thread title to reflect as much (at least I think I did... should it be labeled simply as 'unokubi zukuri wakizashi?' if I missed the mark, please let me know and I will edit it to read more appropriately).

 

I do have a couple thoughts on which I would appreciate your insight... First, the deep sori seems so atypical of any tanto or wakizashi I have been exposed to (which isn't saying all that much ), with a curvature that appears almost as if it might prohibit its effective use in tanto/waki form (at least relative to mu-sori or uchizori tanto?). In your opinion, is this a resulting artifact of an (exagerated?) 'homage' style? If not, then I am still left to resolve the cognitive dissonance as to why the sori would be so exagerated in what was originally made as a wakizashi... :?

 

Second, given the descriptive nature of the efforts to quanitify and qualify blade attributes for the purpose of kantei, I guess I am surprised to hear that a sori:nagasa ratio - something that would allow for the easy quantification of the 'degree' or 'severity' of blade curvature - does not correlate to/with various schools or smiths, but then again, I learn something new everytime I visit here it seems...

 

 

Ian, I was hoping I might see you contribute to the thread, what with your immense exposure to the encyclopedic collection in Leeds... While I might have encountered a Japanese trade blade in the past, I cannot recall having done so, and given the frequency with which one encounters various provincial mountings of Solingen (and in general European) trade blades through the Near and Middle East, I am fascincated by the prospect.

 

If by chance you have the chance to post or even suggest where myself and other interested members might look for other examples available to be seen in print or curatorial collections, I would be most appreciative, and thank you in advance for the same.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

[IanB]

Chris, I was in work today and should have photographed the pseudo naginata. I'm off on holiday next week but I will take some pics later. As for others, I once had the opportunity to buy one but was too ignorant at the time. There must be others about, if I put the pics up, I'm sure people will say 'Oh that is what it is'.

Ian B

[La Espada Ancha]

Hello Ian,

 

Thank you very much for the thought, and I'll keep the thread bookmarked so as to check back for photos once you have returned. In the meantime, enjoy your holiday.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

[Jean]

Chris,

 

Over 20 years, I have only seen 2 wakizashi like this, I don't know the how and why of such blades