How much more value does NBTHK papers add.

[bmoore1322]

Okay, I bought an another NIHONTO sword , It is from the Ganmaku School, Koto period (About 1521), it is a beautiful Shirasaya, and has Itame Hada, the Hamon is gunome midare, no signature on the blade, and is in old polish, but still looks really great.

 

Plus it has NBTHK papers.

 

I'm curious , how much more value does it add to the sword being papered already, and in full polish also.

 

Brian

[Jiro49]

I would imagine it depends on the school and smith its attributed to...

[runagmc]

How much more were YOU willing to pay since the sword was papered?

 

There's no definitive answer to your question... but it should add to the value some, depending on the sword, the level of paper, and the attribution.

[bmoore1322]

There is no signature on the Nkago, but the NBTHK papers do say the following;

 

Ganmaku School (Mino Den), Koto period(About 1521)

 

Brian

[paulb]

Brian,

As Matt says it depends on the school. It also depends on the level of the paper, when it was issued and a number of other factors.

The main thing a paper offers is some confidence and security when buying at distance and effectively unseen. I would suggest most swords these days are bought via the internet so the sword having a paper greatly adds to it saleability.

The other thing to consider is what it would cost to have a sword papered. I would suggest at the very least by the time you shipped the sword paid agents handling fees admission charges etc the cost would be between $1500 and $1750. If you then require a blade to be polished have new habaki and shirasaya add another $2k

So there is certainly some good reason to buy swords in good polish and already papered.

At the extreme end of papering, a sword with a juyo paper (Important sword designation) is valued at between one and a half and twice the value of a blade by the same smith with a Tokubetsu hozon paper (very rough rule of thumb and there are variations either way) if you go up to Tokubetsu Juyo it can double again.

As with all things in this field there are no easy answers.

[bmoore1322]

@ Paul

 

If I paid just a little over 1200.00 for it, that would be a good price, or what ?

 

Brian

[Jean]

The only interesting thing in this case is to give a written statement of an opinion that the sword belongs to the Ganmaku school (Mino Den), unfortunately not the most prized school. So added value ($) is zero. Added learning value is great, because it must stimulate you to find the why of this kantei.

 

Added value in $ depends on the ranking of the kanteisho, H, TH, Juyo, Tokubetsu Juyo. There are people who are ready to buy, not the sword but the paper. Real collectors buy swords and not papers. A given hozon sword can easily be worth the price of a juyo blade.

 

As has been said already, the paper validates either the signature, kantei the school and can give a level of quality.

I have 2 swords which went to Hozon Shinsa for attribution, being O suriage. They are both at the level of a lot of Juyo blades I have seen. When they are sold they will be estimate on their quality and not on the hozon paper value.

 

Unfortunately, in Japan, nowadays, more and more people are buying and selling papers instead of swords.

[bmoore1322]

@ Jean

 

 

I understand what you mean on people buying papers, but papers really dont matter to me, its a big plus that it has papers, if I see a sword I like, I buy it, I buy the sword , not the papers. I hope you understand what I mean.

 

 

This would be my first with papers, and not needing anything, plus the price I think is really good.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

Whether the price is good or not depends on what you got for the money you spent. Without photos of the item, who can say?

[paulb]

Hi Brian,

I agree with Jean's comments interestingly I know at least one case where what may well be the most important sword has hozon papers which is the lowest level amongst the blades Iin the collection.

 

In response to your price question as what you paid is less than the cost of polish, shirasaya and papereing you could say you got the blade for free

Provided you like it and you can learn form it I think it was a good buy.

[bmoore1322]

Yes, i love what I see so far in the blade, and the price to me was really great also.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Show us some pictures of the sword and we will tell you if you have bought a blade or a paper.

 

Is it a katana? With koshirae? I u,derstand it is in full polish. Is it o suriage, suriage?

 

Brian, you are enthusiastic, but you worry me because you only buy blades you like, without being able to say exactly if it is a good sword or not. Then you come to us asking if it was a good deal or not. All that shines is not gold. You are going to be a favourite target for a lot of crooks acting this way. Learn first, then buy. Money is hard to come by, so don't waste it.

Should I be an American citizen and living in the States, I'll buy my swords at the different Token kai which are held each year, thanks to NMB members as Chris, Tom or Fred W.

You will find there swords at all prices, stands managed by a lot of NMB members, could discuss with some very nice gentlemen as Barry H., Ted T., Mike Y. .... And thus learned a lot before buying at ghe last minute the sword you have been aimin at from the start, at a bargain price :D

[bmoore1322]

@ Jean

 

 

I sent you some pics to your your Pm, but here are some pics for everyone to see.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Ok, Brian PM me the picture of the blade and the kanteisho, good blade, good polish, wakizashi. fair price for a good sword papered to a secondary school. You did the right thing in buying the blade in full polish. Never buy a rusted blade unless papered to a very good school/smith for the reason already stated.

 

I want you Brian to study thoroughly Dr Stein website "the Japanese sword index". You will learn about a lot of things and particulary all you have to know about kanteisho and how to read them.

[bmoore1322]

Looking for the web site now, and the only thing I think that make the blade any better would have been if it was signed, besides that, I think it's a great blade for the price, with the papers also.

 

 

I seem to like the wakizashi's better for some reason.

 

 

 

Brian

[DirkO]

Hi Brian,

 

Just some friendly advice:

 

- there are hardly any treasures to be found on eBay - more so if you're just beginning - it's the smallest pond with the largest amount of fishers

- the fact that it didn't sell the first time and only had a reserve of 1000USD is an indicator that it wasn't seen as a very desirable piece

 

What attracted you to this blade in the first place? Was it the fact that it was papered? (no shame in that if you're beginning, sometimes your enthousiasm will get the better of you! we've all been there). If you can tell us what attracts you in a blade, then maybe some of the more educated than myself might guide you in your next buys.

 

What happened now is: you've bought something you don't know anything about except what's stated by the eBay seller. You did zero research and now you come in here asking if you had a good deal. I know this sounds harsh, but I don't think this is far off. However this kind of behaviour does come at a risk. Far be it from me to tell you what you must or mustn't do - this is merely advice: unless you have a very large inexhaustable wallet, you're better of buying something after you've done your research on that target. This will ensure you (at least in some way) that should you decide to resell it afterwards, you won't lose a bundle on it. If however you do have a wod of cash at your disposal, well then there are far better blades/deals to be had.

 

All of the above is to be taken as advice, and nothing more. We've seen it happen too often in the past...

[bmoore1322]

Umm, yes i did do some research on it, asked the seller many questions on it, searched the net for school info, and the fact that it was papered made it better for me.

 

I like the fact that I prefer the wakizashi blades the most, the fact that it did not sell the first time, actually i dont understand why it would not.

 

 

I got it for a really good price, had several members in here tell me in Pm, that it is a good sword for the price, and that it has papers, and in good polish makes it even better.

 

 

Not my fault if no one saw what i saw in it, what attracted me to it was the quality of the blade, and shirasaya , and the pics shows the hada, and hamon which are beautiful to me.

 

I beg to difference with you on the ebay comment, YES there is a lot of junk on there, but a if a person looks good, and hard, and reads the listing, some good quality blades can be found on eBay.

 

You tell me what is wrong with it, what do you see that would keep you from paying 1200.00 for it, nothing wrong with the blade, in good polish, great hamon, and hada, shirasaya in beautiful condition, from a great war time era, from a known school, i will admit not the greatest of schools, but a well known school, not signed, but does have papers to prove the history of the blade.

 

 

This is what one member in here said about the sword in PM ;

 

" good example of a sword made towards the end of the koto period. It is a good functional Mino blade. Some would say it may be what is called a "bundle sword", a blade that was semi mass produced to equip soldiers during a period of great unrest. I cannot say whether this is the case and I doubt many on the board could identify one as such. So while possilby not an Art sword it is a good solid piece of traditionally made Nihonto history. "

 

Brian

[Brian]

Sought after school or not, I think it was a good deal. Anytime you pick up a sword that you can be fairly sure of not losing money on if you upgrade, you are doing ok. I think a papered sword in good polish like this should fetch you $1500 when you sell.

Lots of good points made here, but won't deny that it was a fair deal.

Might disagree with a few ppl here when I say that papers do add value for me. You cannot research a blade and come to a kantei conclusion and consider yourself a bit more educated without papers telling you if you learned something or not. Especially if you have no experts, shinsas or shows near you. For me..papers definitely add value, and make a sword easier to sell too.

This will likely be one you trade upwards oneday..and I think you will do ok.

 

Brian

[Jiro49]

Again, dont get on the defensive. When you ask questions you will receive all types of answers.

 

Just FYI, most collectors consider the sengoku period swords as mostly utilitarian but there are exceptions of course. What the other members are saying is you have spent about 3-4k since joining the board and most feel that could of gone towards books or one really nice wakizashi or whatever.

 

But when you ask for opinions you might not always like the reply's..

 

Respectfully,

[Jiro49]

BTW, I love katate-uchi from the sengoku jidai

[bmoore1322]

@ Brian, thanks.

 

And i was not being offensive, i just think that not everything is junk on eBay, there are some swords to be found if a person looks good and hard.

 

I can only think that people thought the sword would sell for much higher then it did, because of the papers and such, or the fact that it ended so late in the morning, that majority of people was still in bed.

 

Dont know, but i do know its mine now, i won it, and when it shows up I will post a lot more detailed pics of it.

 

thanks

Brian

[Jiro49]

As long as you are happy!!! :D

[bmoore1322]

As of right now, yes, very happy with it.

 

 

Thanks

Brian

[Jamie]

You didn't do badly on this one Brian. Collect-ability is different for different people. That you feel you paid fairly is most important. That you are happy. Papers alone would cost close to what you paid, so you have done ok. Some older papers a bit suspect so all papers can't be trusted. You will learn and probably will not lose money on this piece so as long as you are happy(and sounds like you are) then you have done well.

Look at it and twist it in the light- see if you pic out some fine details, then see if you can name those details. If not-look them up-

Have fun

Jamie

 

The one other thing is- There really isn't a lot on ebay. Many of the people on this forum have been doing this a long time and they do know what they are talking about.

[Jean]

Jamie,

 

Hozon papers cost 321$ only, and this blade has been papered before being exported.

[bmoore1322]

I was looking at it this way;

 

1) To have a blade polished would cost 75.00 to 100.00 and inch, and the time frame for polishing, and the idea of having it shipped off.

 

2) The cost to have it papered, and the time frame of having it shipped off also.

 

3) And to have a shirasaya built for it also, but this one looks in mint condition.

 

4) It's an Nihonto, in beautiful condition.

 

5) The thought of any future resale, or trade value, which Brian confirmed that for me as well.

 

All of this i took into consideration before I bought it, and I was willing to go as high as 1800.00 on it, glad it didn't go that high.

 

Brian

[Jamie]

Jean,

 

You make a good point (i am not surprised)

I just meant having it papered from here.

Brian, you should listen to Jean.

[bmoore1322]

@ Jamie

 

I do listen to Jean, what i was saying i took everything into consideration i said in comments before i bought the sword, why would i not take the advice of experts in here, Brian the mod owner even stated that I did good on this sword.

 

Brian

[Jean]

It's a good blade for the price, the only good reason to buy it, on all the listed ones, is number 4 Brian, the others are irrelevant as I am not sure you can detect a good nihonto in a rusted blade

[bmoore1322]

@ Jean

 

I think the time it would take to have it sent off and get it back to have it polished, plus the time it would take to have it sent off, and get it back on having it papered is well worth the price of the sword, and like you said # 4 is the best one of all.

 

Brian