bmoore1322 Posted August 6, 2012 Report Posted August 6, 2012 Okay, I dont want to sound stupid, or have someone think this post is an abomination or anything. But how often would an Naginata be reshaped into an Wakizashi, Of course the blade would not be signed, as that part of the blade would have been cut off in the process. And would this increase the value of an item ? Brian
Kam Posted August 6, 2012 Report Posted August 6, 2012 Hi Naginata have been converted for a plethora of reasons some of which may be emphasised by some of the other members. From saving a blade that has received a hagiri or other fatal wound to having more of a use as a katana or wak to the owner to trends of the time. If the taste of the time was Naginata naoshi, then it may increase its value and be more attractive to potential buyer. . . keeping in mind that "funny stuff" has been going on for a long time so anything to help line the pockets. Alterations have been acheived obviously by adjusting the Nakago and often ha and mune machi as well. The kissaki is also readjusted but not as to affect the Hamon. And then there is forged Naginata zukuri, Unokubizukuri etc, blades that have been forged as such. Just a brief outline on one of my fav styles. . . I hope it is of help. Kam
Brian Posted August 6, 2012 Report Posted August 6, 2012 As mentioned, it is called naginata naoshi, and it was mainly done since a wakizashi was handier and more useful outside of wartime than a polearm. However in my opinion the end value would be less than if it was left as a naginata. They don't tend to fetch huge money, but this style of wakizashi often fetches more than an identical wakizashi without the hi (assuming well done) The trick is to identify well done naginata hi and lines, as many are rough and not well cut/parallel. Brian
jamesicus Posted August 6, 2012 Report Posted August 6, 2012 Brian (bmoore1322): Do you mean nagamaki rather than naginata? Refer to: Googlebooks extract: THE CONNOISSEUR'S BOOK OF Japanese SWORDS by Kokan Nagayama, Kodansha International, 1995 (page 49) James
NihontoEurope Posted August 6, 2012 Report Posted August 6, 2012 Of course the blade would not be signed, as that part of the blade would have been cut off in the process. Brian Hello, Naginata is normally not reshaped, Nagamaki could be (as post above). Cut down Nagamaki and Naginata could be signed. /Martin
Jamie Posted August 6, 2012 Report Posted August 6, 2012 It's not uncommon Brian. I like the shobu zukuri and Naginata Naoshi geometry. I find I really like most of the geometries without Yokote. I have a gorgeous one from Nambokucho that has a very elegant sugata. I saw one at the show this weekend (a KO Gassan) that I was told was the only known such example. It also was beautiful. I have a suggestion. I too am basically a beginner, but probably an advanced beginner. The Show in SF this weekend did me a world of good. And I think attending a couple shows is the best thing you can do for your studies. Not to buy, but to look at great swords. I think anyone could get carried away looking for deals there and there certainly were some to be had. Personally I focused on seeing great swords. It helps your eyes exponentially. And you can test what you know by Judging a blade and them finding out what it is, and see if you're right. This helped me a lot and confirmed for me that im on the right track. Anyway, sorry for being a bit off topic. J
Kam Posted August 6, 2012 Report Posted August 6, 2012 Hello, Naginata is normally not reshaped, Nagamaki could be (as post above). /Martin Hi I have owned a few Naginata naoshi and a couple of Nagamaki naoshi. I think the problem is nagamaki and naginata are often lumped in the same bin. From my understanding (and this was also pointed out by Gordan at the first sydney shinsa) Nagamaki have no Bohi and tend to be either shobuzukuri or shinogi zukuri without yokote. Naginata on the other hand tend to be Unokubizukuri with "naginata hi". When converted to a Wakizashi a true naginata (as applies to a flared tip) is often easy to pick as there is no hamon turn back due to the removal of a section of the mune at the tip. Im sure someone may disagree. . . but this is my understanding in a nutshell, obviously there are exceptions to the rule although in this case it would apply 99% of the time. Kam
bmoore1322 Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Posted August 7, 2012 I could post a pic of it, I'm working out a deal on it right now, and i really love the looks of it, the big meaty blade, and in beautiful full polish condition. Brian
nagamaki - Franco Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 I think the problem is nagamaki and naginata are often lumped in the same bin As previously discussed nagamaki fall under the naginata class of arms according to the NBTHK. And unless a piece has a known documented history of being mounted as a nagamaki it will be papered as a naginata by the NBTHK. http://japantrip.tripod.com/Japan/osafune2.html When buying one of these swords great care should be taken to understand what you're purchasing at both ends of the sword, and age can make a big difference in this regard. The presence of a yokote line brings about the addition of 'katana' or 'wakizashi' designation in naoshi pieces.
bmoore1322 Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Posted August 7, 2012 @ Franco There is no yokote line, here are the pics, I have been talking with the seller on this, we have pretty much came to an agreement on the price, I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on it. I like the way it looks, as it does have hada present, and the hamon looks like notare midare to me. Habaki is Gin-gise, or silver covering copper base. The cutting edge is 40.5cm(16 inches), and the Nakago is 13.8cm(5.3 inches) which has beautiful file marks with two holes, The blade is very thick (8mm on the center Mune line) and wide (3.5cm). Brian
bmoore1322 Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Posted August 7, 2012 More pics. Everything is old to the sword except new Tsukamaki rapping. The blade is early Shinto but could be Koto, overall it is very healthy and has no nicks, no openings, but one very tiny dark spot on the Jihada. Brian
Jacques D. Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 Hi, But how often would an Naginata be reshaped into an Wakizashi, That one is not a naginata/nagamaki naoshi, it's a shobu zukuri wakazashi.
bmoore1322 Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Posted August 7, 2012 I'm still learning this, does that make it a more rare , or common Nihonto ? Thanks for clarifying this for me. Brian
NihontoEurope Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 That one is not a naginata/nagamaki naoshi, it's a shobu zukuri wakazashi. I have seen such blades being claimed to be shortened/ cut down Naginata before. Are you 100% sure Jacques? /Martin
Kam Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 It is defined as an Unokubi zukuri and was most likely forged as such. I have one almost identical. Will get some pics. As for Nagamaki, Naginata debate I think while the NBTHK might find it easier to classify as the same just diff mounts, I would be more inclined to follow the basic rule stated earlier. Gordon Robson (NTHK) made a point of this as I had pointed out. Either way red and green apples. Kam
bmoore1322 Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Posted August 7, 2012 Would anyone know anything about the Kamon, or silver family crest of leaves on both Fuchi and Kashira, what family these would have belonged to, and their importance , if any. Brian
Jacques D. Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 Hi, Are you 100% sure Jacques? Yes, there is a kaeri on the boshi.
bmoore1322 Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Posted August 7, 2012 So, overall what do you think of the sword ? Brian
IanB Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 All, One point that has not been mentioned is that the geometry of some naginata make their conversion to a wakizashi something of a problem. Early naginata in particular were shaped with a pronounced widening of the blade in that region that might be described as the monouchi. In other words where the blade begins to acquire its pronounced curve towards the point, the distance from the shinogi to the edge increases. It is the line of the shinogi that dictates how the conversion must be done. During conversion the extreme curvature towards the point has to be cut off to continue the line of the mune. The new boshi thus formed having originally been part of the hamon some way back from the original point and hence having no kaeri. Because the line of the shinogi cannot be altered, the only solution to the widened part of the blade is to reduce it from the edge. If the monouchi of the original naginata had a wide hamon this is not a problem. If it didn't, the hamon will be either narrowed or lost in this area. I have such a wakizashi blade where the hamon actually runs off about 2/3rds of the way up the blade, re-appearing after a gap of about 4" to continue to the point. We would consider this a fatal flaw, but it evidently didn't concern the previous owner who had it mounted. Ian Bottomley
nagamaki - Franco Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 This message board can actually be quite useful when fully used http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4740 Ian, thank you for your point which is precisely what I meant when saying When buying one of these swords great care should be taken to understand what you're purchasing at both ends of the sword When you're looking at one of these swords you must first be able to imagine, picture, what it looked like in its full original form in order to begin appreciating (or not) what remains. And if it is simply a later copy of a naoshi piece you must assess it for what it is or isn't. Again, from a collector's point of view, unless you can kantei the sword, determine when, where, and who made the sword, then you need to ask yourself why. Plus, don't forget to apply the NBTHK shinsa guidelines, and realize what they mean.
bmoore1322 Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Posted August 7, 2012 @ Ian The hamon is prefect the whole way down, not cut off, or narrowing at any point along the habuchi, the Ha, and the Ha-saki are in perfect condition as well. Brian
bmoore1322 Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Posted August 7, 2012 I'm beginning to think it is an shobu zukuri wakazashi, as one member already said. Brian
Kam Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 All, One point that has not been mentioned is that the geometry of some naginata make their conversion to a wakizashi something of a problem. Early naginata in particular were shaped with a pronounced widening of the blade in that region that might be described as the monouchi. In other words where the blade begins to acquire its pronounced curve towards the point, the distance from the shinogi to the edge increases. It is the line of the shinogi that dictates how the conversion must be done. During conversion the extreme curvature towards the point has to be cut off to continue the line of the mune. The new boshi thus formed having originally been part of the hamon some way back from the original point and hence having no kaeri. Because the line of the shinogi cannot be altered, the only solution to the widened part of the blade is to reduce it from the edge. If the monouchi of the original naginata had a wide hamon this is not a problem. If it didn't, the hamon will be either narrowed or lost in this area. I have such a wakizashi blade where the hamon actually runs off about 2/3rds of the way up the blade, re-appearing after a gap of about 4" to continue to the point. We would consider this a fatal flaw, but it evidently didn't concern the previous owner who had it mounted.Ian Bottomley Hi Ian I did make mention, admittedly a little bit brief and written somewhat hastily. . . kids at home. . . not a great way to work. All the same thank you for a more concise explanation. Kam
Brian Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 Is it just me, or is that tsuba theme one of the most un-Japanese themes I have ever seen? :? Dunno...it just looks like someone's Western idea of a Christmas ornament to me. No Japanese feeling coming from it at all. Am I crazy? The kogatana looks modern too. Sword looks ok though. Brian
Thierry BERNARD Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 Is it just me, or is that tsuba theme one of the most un-Japanese themes I have ever seen? :? deer and maple leaf is a very common Japanese theme!! http://zincavage.org/DeerandMaple.html
nagamaki - Franco Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 Dunno...it just looks like someone's Western idea of a Christmas ornament to me funny you say that, made me do a double take, as it reminded me of some of my wife's x-mas cookie cutter patterns. On the other hand it also brings to mind the deer browsing on newly sprouted Japanese maple leaves every spring in the yard.
NihontoEurope Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 Nagamaki have no Bohi Kam Kam, I have a Nagamaki with Bo Hi carvings (original). /Martin
Brian Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 Think I phrased it wrong. It is not the theme itself that is odd...but the way it is depicted/executed that looks very untraditional to me. The deer looks too comical, like it needs a red nose, and the lines are all just odd. Overall feeling is all... Ah well...not serious Brian
Jacques D. Posted August 7, 2012 Report Posted August 7, 2012 Hi, Because the line of the shinogi cannot be altered, Are you sure ?
bmoore1322 Posted August 7, 2012 Author Report Posted August 7, 2012 I'm happy with it, as this would be my third Nihonto, and the fact this is not an ordinary one, or possibly was an Naginata at one time, and it is in full polish, with complete mounts, and family crest just makes it so much better. If this was an Wakizashi, I wonder where it's big brother is, and what he would look like ? Brian
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