Edo Period Corner Part II

[cabowen]

A shishi of note I imagine....

[Bugyotsuji]

For Chris and John.

[cabowen]

Wow.....He had good taste....a big sword for a big guy....

[Drago]

Would you care to let me in on the name? I tried, but I can't figure it out.

[Justin Grant]

I am speculating that this is for/from Saigo Takamori 西郷 隆盛 from Satsuma.

[cabowen]

Bingo...

[John A Stuart]

I always liked his walking the dog statue in Ueno. John

[Justin Grant]

He is a perfect example of Giri-Ninjo in my opinion.

[Drago]

Bingo...

 

Seriously?

 

Piers: Have you confirmed that? How did you get your hands on that one? (if you are willing to tell: How much did it cost?) I think a sword like this would usually only been found in a museum or family shrine...

[Justin Grant]

I think the photo was taken at a show or museum., notice the other items around it.

[Bugyotsuji]

A friend's. He collects all kinds of things, mostly Menpo and Kawari-kabuto, but has a special interest in Satsuma.

[Bugyotsuji]

Caught this fellow skulking around my house. Anyone recognize him? :|

[Viper6924]

I would go with Kondo Isami, commander of the Shinsengumi :D

 

Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

Very close, Jan!

[kusunokimasahige]

That is not Kondo. It is Hijikata Toshizō

[Bugyotsuji]

Bravo!

 

How on earth did you know that? This place gets scarier each day!

[Viper6924]

Here´s my small collection of the Shinsengumi. Notice how I placed Serizawa Kamo (with the cannon) in the back. I mean, he got assassinated on Kondos order, so where could I have placed him :D

Acctually visited the Shintakuji temple (called Mibudera temple today) a couple of years ago. Had a nice chat with the little woman in the ticket stand. When she heard I came from Sweden she let me in for free. The statue is of Kondo Isami.

 

Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

Correct me if I am wrong but I heard or read somewhere that a sudden single deadly vertical blow with a Katana was considered the best way to go about things at the time? Perhaps the single bar of iron in the Hachimaki was to prevent such a surprise attack?

[sanjuro]

Piers.

 

If you dont mind me chiming in here, what you have heard or read is essentially true. However as a sword practitioner, theres a couple of things that spring to mind concerning the preferred methods of despatching an opponent with a sword, particularly an armoured opponent.

Armour as far as a swordsman is concerned is always a tradeoff between the amount of protection it affords compared to the weight, compared to the mobility and impairment to the deployment of the sword it represents. A kabuto for instance affords good protection for the head but it also impairs peripheral vision. On a battlefield, that alone may cost you either your life or a serious concussion.

You wear armour in your historical activities, so I'm sure you can relate to this.

Whilst Japanese armour is relatively light, for a swordsman, running around in a full set of armour tires you prematurely during a battle, so you left off the bits that you considered redundant to the task at hand. The kabuto was set aside in favour of this armoured hachimaki by many samurai of the period but it did not offer the same protection of course. As a protection against a direct men cut, it was marginal in terms of protection, (It wouldnt stop a men cut) but it was great at protecting against glancing blows which are far more likely. Its a good tradeoff in a fast moving spontaneous engagement where you have multiple or quickly consecutive opponents. On the other hand, in a one to one engagenment where you can focus on a single opponent and perhaps lure him into making a mistake with his blade down, a men cut is decisive.

As far as preferences go in bring your man down, a swordsman targets unprotected areas, in the case of these figurines and the way they are armoured, thighs and arms are unarmoured and would be prime targets. (You do of course have to get past your opponent's sword in order to cut him down). Once disabled you can pick the way you want to finish him off. (Or more likely just let him bleed to death whilst you fight another guy who is trying to chop you into dog meat). Sorry for the gruesome description but war isnt pretty and an opponent down is one less.

Just my thoughts as a martial artist on the matter, I hope you dont mind me voicing them.

[cabowen]

I recall hearing that in the dust ups in the Bakumatsu era, fingers and hands were a prime target. Seems at the end of a few of these skirmishes, there were fingers laying all over....

[sanjuro]

Chris.

Lopping off a man's fingers intentionally, takes pinpoint accuracy with the blade........ Now that's fine as a demo of your skill , but why not just kill him, its easier and he isnt going to come looking for you later to resume the issue?

[cabowen]

No idea....just what I have been told happened....

[kusunokimasahige]

Piers: Watching the Shinsengumi series back to forth, as well as the Anime version does that trick, as does looking for samurai collectible figurines on ebay

 

I have great admiration for the story of the Shinsengumi. It is one of those tales of tragic and misguided heroism and betrayal.

 

Hijikata Toshizo's death poem is chilling and beautiful at the same time.

 

"Though my body may decay on the island of Ezo, My spirit guards my lord in the east."

 

 

Keith, great piece on the practicality of armor. However many of the Shinsengumi wore tatami gusoku, also on contemporary images. I do agree on the Hachimaki. That always has come across as rather symbolic protection to me.

 

Great figurines, great story, pity those men were (ab)used by all parties involved and fought a desperate and losing conflict.

It is that entire story which makes the Imperial as well as the Shogunal betrayal towards the Samurai class and this group even more poignant.

 

KM

[Toryu2020]

All -

I think we need to remember that the troubles of the Bakumatsu era came at the end of 200 plus years of peace. And while ko-ryu kenjutsu that included the battlefield practices of the Sengoku era were still practiced in spots most samurai of the time really only practiced something akin to shinae-kendo. If you try to block a sword, or cut at someones kote or do tsuba-zeriai with a live blade as one does with a bamboo sword, fingers are sure to come off. This is all natural since stepping under another mans swords while trying to cut him illicits a great deal of hesitation in all but the bravest. So two guys swinging at each other but trying hard not to get cut will also most likely produce a lot of loose fingers.

 

And it is true as Chris has said that in those days that after many a fight, fingers were collected up and then messages would be attached supporting the Emperor or the Shogun, these were then tossed into the gardens of the homes of known supporters of one camp or the other. Heads if they were taken were reserved for the most hated persons on the other side...

 

We should also remember that the Shinsengumi modelled their uniforms on those of the Ako Roshi - which might seem strange since the actions of the "47 Samurai" were in fact a rebellion against Tokugawa rule but by the 1860's they were seen by all as exemplars of loyalty. Thus the hachimaki (Hitai-ate) was a choice dictated by what the Ako Roshi wore rather than more practical concerns though they would have proved a useful choice for their mission...

-t

[sanjuro]

while ko-ryu kenjutsu that included the battlefield practices of the Sengoku era were still practiced in spots most samurai of the time really only practiced something akin to shinae-kendo.

 

Following on from this raises an interesting question.

 

The above being the case, and midful of the various texts on swords of that period claiming that blade breakage was more commonplace in shinto and shinshinto swords, could this be a primary reason for those breakages? Given that Shinae kendo technique fosters a 'hit' style of technique rather than a 'cut' style of technique such as one finds in kenjutsu, this would place a very different kind of stress on the blade than that which it is designed for.

 

Sorry if this is an off topic thing, but I have very little control of my epiphanous moments. :D

[Toryu2020]

Sorry should have said SHINAI with an "eye" not an "II"!!

 

Keith - an interesting question, I think it has more to do with the qualities of the steel and construction. Might be a good question to pose as a separate thread...

-t

[John A Stuart]

I don't understand Keith. A mengiri in kendo is the same as a mengiri in one of the koryu isn't it? Unless you mean the lack of follow through and the stopping of the strike to minimise contact. The technique in essence is equivalent. I suspect that breakage would be more due to the swords construction than method, given it was done rightly. The same that has been said about nioideki being less prone to breakage than niedeki. Kendoka would be trained to hit men, kote and etc. while kenjutsuka would be trained to hit more vulnerable points. That would be in modern sports kendo, originally shinae training as promoted by Hidetsugu would strike the same points as it was still a way to train in a martial discipline (Kashima Shinryu). John

[sanjuro]

Hi John.

 

No... Mengiri in Kendo Is not the same as mengiri in kenjutsu. In Kendo the strike is exactly that.. a strike and in really bad form it is a push motion at the end of the blade's travel with the swordsmans arms fully extended. As you know, Mengiri in essence is a circular motion of the hands overhead. In kenjutsu, in fact also in Iaijutsu, there is a slight reaching of the arc above the head where the swordsman's arms are fully extended and as the blade impacts the men it is actually being pulled back toward the swordsman's body partly by the swordsman and also by the natural reduction of the arc as the hands fall below the impact point. As you have mentioned, a swordsman cuts through his target rather than striking it. The hands actually lead the blade slightly throughout the cut. The result is a cutting motion rather than a hitting motion.

Its worthy of note that apart from this difference in technique, the weapon involved is also significantly different. The shinai is dead straight and lends itself more readily to hitting whereas a bokken is curved and more easily enables and encourages a cutting motion in the technique. In addition to this, the nature of kendo which is, and as far as I know has historically been fought to a set of rules and limitations, puts emphasis on the men cut whereas kenjutsu which does not have such rules and limitations, does not. Kenjutsu allows for many possible targets whereas kendo has limited legitimate targets. This limitation in kendo allows more use of the men cut since one does not need to defend as many allowable targets on one's own body. The men cut creates weaknesses (in fact it leaves you wide open to a counter move) that are more easily exploited in kenjutsu by virtue of the greater number of possible cuts. It is this difference that Thomas was referring to in the type of swordsmanship employed by the bakamatsu swordsmen. In essence they were using the sword more as a shinai than as a sword because most of their training was with a shinai. Also of course they did not have the practical experience with a sword that comes from the battlefield where there are no rules at all. I dont know what sort of kendo was taught under Hidetsugu, but a shinai does not allow you to defend in the same way as a bokken does, Also, arms and legs, armour weak points and a knowledge of nerve and blood vessel locations to name only a few differences are not taught as targets in kendo as they are in koryu kenjutsu. Whitesticks, the forerunner of kendo prior to Hidetsugus time, did not have many rules but the bokken was essentially solid and straight, and its exponents wore a great deal of padding to prevent injury.

God... I could go on forever about the differences, but essentially modern Kendo has less to do with combat and more to do with excercise, reflexes and in modern times a more sporting application. Historically it was a method of keeping samurai fit and marginally familiar with the use of a sword. Coupled with other forms of training, it supplies part of a curriculum of practical swordsmanship. No criticism there, each of the sword arts has its place in swordsmanship.

Sorry... didnt mean to ramble on.

[John A Stuart]

I see what you are driving at. I wonder if a kendoka, if given a shinken, would hit a target with that same abbreviated technique or if the technique would naturally follow the change of weapon. Not where he strikes, but, how. It would be an interesting experiment, I think. When mentioning Hidetsugu, swordsmanship was still a life saving art, as it was end times of the Sengoku and I see the shinae used like bokken, perhaps with less serious injury in the dojo. I guess, many saw it as effeminate, the hard core, no pain no gain, crowd. It might be good for speed and reflex training used in conjunction with shinken and bokken. Like punching at hanging threads as part of training with makiwara. That aside though, I wonder if that really would be a cause of more blades being broken? John

[sanjuro]

John.

 

The experiment with kendoka using bokken or a live blade as opposed to a shinai would indeed be interesting if anyone could organise it without having anyone killed during the experiment. :lol: The use of a live blade particularly would introduce a whole new dimension to Kendo. Kabuto sales would go through the roof! Then of course they wouldn't be able to execute mengiri. The technique as executed in kendo is impossible when wearing most styles of kabuto.

Seriously, as far as the blade breakage thing is concerned, there is no doubt that the steel used in sword making during shinto and shinshinto times was a significant factor as was the swordsmiths practice of making comparatively wide hamon on later swords. These factors made the blades of the time more brittle and hence more prone to breakage. Add to this the element of hitting as opposed to cutting in the technique of swordsmen of the time, and you have a recipe for a high incidence of blade breakage. My instincts tell me there was a combination of factors responsible for high incidences of blade breakage, of which the few we have spoken of here were part. Poor technique does compromise a blade, but i wonder to what extent, and what other factors such as brittle steel contributed to the breakage 'syndrome'.