Edo Period Corner Part II

[Viper6924]

I rather like teppo no 2 with the dragonmotif. Looking past the "cleaning" of the barrel it looks good. Wonder if a signature is hiding under the barrel? I could see myslef dropping 2000 dollars for it. I´m pretty sure he´s got the whole deal with the metalurgist totally wrong.

The bottom one of the two other teppos, which I could study "in hand" needs a lot of TLC. If I bought it for a very very very low price, I would send it to Japan and let someone fix all the ugly brass. It had a mon on top. Also a two kanji signature. I hope the seller can fix a picture of it.

Stunned to see a third teppolito in the pictures.

I wonder if this guy is growing them in his backyard :D

 

I also wonder why people feel the urge to polish tell hell out of Japanese teppos You see other guns from the same period with their original patina. Perhaps it´s some kind of punishment for the war...

 

 

/Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

Just to show that 種子島筒　Tanegashima-zutsu can at a pinch be fired in the rain. Footage from the 大名行列 Daimyo Gyoretsu yesterday. Lots of little incidents, but somehow we won the overall battle. You can hear the call of 下に、下に "Shita-ni, shita-ni" in the background.

 

Our 隊長 Tai-Cho fires the 礼射　Reisha (opening salute) with a 馬上筒　Bajo-zutsu cavalry pistol, 短筒 tan-zutsu short pistol. (The sound on this clip is none too good though. )

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello!

 

I just recieved another mail from the owner of the 3 swedish teppo pistols.

He tells the following story regarding the teppo with the dragon;

The owner participated in the "world championships in black powder shoting" 8 years ago in the US. He claims that the Japanese team went to the competition office in order to have the swede not to shoot with the teppo, since it was a national treasure, and could be damaged and should stay in a Japanese museum. They made an estimate regarding the value at $75000+.

 

The swedish owner claims there are 3 weapons known to be from 100% iron, this teppo and 2 swords, supposed to stay in a Kyodo museum. He claims that metallic parts of pure iron is difficult, "almost impossible" to manufacture. The swords are supposed to be made from "bog ore" (direct translation) from nothern Japan. The ore is very rare and only the emperor is allowed to touch the swords!!

 

Ok, before you all shoot the messanger , I just translated the mail as an example of storys and provenance people try to attach to things in order to make them intresting. Since I'm obviously not an metallurgist I can not value what that story is all about, but the whole story has some many holes in it..for example how did the Japanese team manage to check the iron content in the barrel, out in the field?

 

Anyhow he want to sell the other two teppos, $2000 for both together. I don't even dare to ask the price for the "priceless bog iron emperor only touch teppolito"

 

Pierce should I go for the two ?

 

Regards,

 

Anthony

[kusunokimasahige]

Can we change the topic name of this "Edo" thread into : Teppo corner part II ?

 

 

KM

[Brian]

These short teppo are about the most inaccurate of all the blackpowder pistols. The very thought that the owner would even attempt to fire one at a "world black powder championship" tells a lot about the rest of his tale.

Ah well.....time has its way with memories. :lol:

 

Brian

[Hinawaju]

Hi everyone,

maybe Henk-Jan is right about changing the name of the topic.

Anyway, here is a teppo that went on auction the 5 of November in Stockholm for SEK 70 000

premium of 22,5% not included. These pictures are from the online catalog.

I think it is a really great one, so did others.

 

regards,

 

Guy R.

[kusunokimasahige]

That is indeed GORGEOUS !! I especially like the Greek key on the muzzle The engraving also is lovely !

 

The story about the Japanese people asking a team to refrain from firing their Teppo strikes me as very odd btw...

 

KM

[watsonmil]

Dear Guy,

A very well executed Kunitomo Tanegashima of the type carried by Upper Class Samurai. Did they by chance give the name of the " maker " ? I find it unusual that the Mekugi ana have no reinforcing brass washer inlaid into the wood for strength. The barrel engraving is very luxiourious however. For $ 10,325.00 it better be ! A lovely example to say the least. Thank you for posting .

... Ron Watson

[Hinawaju]

Hi Ron,

No name, they know close to nothing about Japanese stuff.

The price is actually $ 12610 premium included.

I was really interested in this teppo too but had to give it up,

It went to Russia. But I am happy with the kabuto. You can´t win them all.

 

Regards,

Guy R.

[watsonmil]

Dear Guy,

I had no idea that Vladimir Putin had an interest in Japanese Art ! Perhaps just a way for the Russian M...a to launder some monies and nothing to do with V. Pudding .

... Ron Watson

PS: I forgot to add in the 22.5 % buyers commission, .... and I critisize the Russians .

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

A fun gun above. The artist has really gone to work on the decoration. The basic shape is Ogino-Ryu school; this type of three-sighted Shi-zutsu samurai gun was often made in Kunitomo. The size of the ball would really help, but I can imagine a gun like this being offered for around 1 million JPY in a gun shop in Tokyo. This kind of decoration does not really appeal to the refined Japanese taste, however, as it is too flashy, I have often been assured here.

 

Regarding the all 'iron' gun, sometimes, as has been mentioned on this site before, a gun's Mei will include a comment about the construction/forging process, eg Tamahagane, Kitae-tetsu, or inclusion of Nanban-tetsu. Certainly in the earlier days when Sakai and Kunitomo closely held the secret of binding the barrels in combinations of steel helix, gunsmiths elsewhere were experimenting, mostly unsuccessfully I suspect, with different ways of improving the strength of the barrels. Without seeing a photo of the inscription it would be hard to comment further.

[Hinawaju]

Hi Piers,

These are all pictures there is, but the caliber is 18-19mm.

This is all I know.

 

regards,

Guy R.

[Bugyotsuji]

Quick Google on Sugawa brings up "10 Monme Shi-zutsu" gun. A big gun, adding value.

 

火縄銃の種類とサイズ

http://www.japaneseweapons.com/hinawajy ... /index.htm

.... 口径18mmから19mmくらいの銃を十匁、侍筒、下士でなく士分が装備したものと言う。比較的現存 ...

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello!

 

Thanks for all inputs regarding the "teppolitos".

When it comes to the beutiful teppo sold on the Probus gun auction in Sweden, it was initially rumored it was sold to Russia. But after talking to a member of NBTHK (swedish sub chapter to Germany) it seems that a another swedish NBTHK member bought the teppo, so it still stays here.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony

[Viper6924]

Sweden 1 Russia 0

 

I went to see it on the weekend before the auction. You get a whole lot of heavy metal for the money when You get one of those. Must have been pure hell dragging it along for a day. But I must admit to the "say hello to my little friend" feeling when You hold it

 

Nice link, Piers!

 

Jan

[kusunokimasahige]

Look toward me, wait for flash..... ( as one would have said in the first days of photography )

 

Good to see the gun stayed in Sweden. It is often a nuisance to me, havin worked for several large auction houses

as a porter when I was younger, to see art objects leave the country because some collector, or in general some

rich person of whatever company, buying the item and putting it in a vault as an investment

rather than something to be seen for the world......

 

KM

[Viper6924]

Well, me and my fellow blackpowder-friend Anthony spent an interesting afternoon with the three teppolitos and it´s very amusing owner. This man has a fantastic collection of old weapons. Amongst many the three teppolitos.

To make a very looong story short; Mr Anthony went home with one bajou-zutsu and one tan-zutsu. My attempt to lay my hands on the tan-zutsu with the dragoncarving was not met with success.

We got stuck in a deep trench of "bog-iron" It´s never fun to kill someones illusions. The seller still claims this teppo is made out of pure 100% iron (FE). The iron is made from some kind of bog-iron or from a sacred mountain... This is the only teppo made from this holy matr. Probably made around 1450-1500. I tried my best to educate him with some Japanese history (Tanegashime 1543) and some other useful info I have picked up along the way. But no way José!!!

I am a very polite man, so I concluded this debate by giving him an estimate from around 1500 dollars to 130000 dollars :lol: He will now contact a expert on metals so they can carry out an extensive investigation (I´m sure the metallurgist will have a laugh). If this bog-iron tan-zutsu turns out to be of "normal" iron, I guess I will soon be it´s new and proud owner. However, if it turns out to be a teppo made out of sacred "bog-iron" only to be touched by the emperor of Japan, well at least I have had the holy graail of teppos in my hand :D

On the tan-zutsu Anthony bought, was two kanjis in front of a mon. Any help translating it, would be great. I put my money on "made from bog-iron"...

 

Jan

[kusunokimasahige]

You never know, he might even have it published in Forbes magazine.......................................

 

[Viper6924]

Yeah, thats what I told Anthony on the way home

 

Jan

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello!

 

I would like the top one to be my little friend...

 

From Seki school, somebody seen one of these babies, Piers?

 

Regards,

 

Anthony

[Bugyotsuji]

Anthony, yes, a great selection of Seki-Ryu guns, with one enormous O-zutsu. Nice find.

 

One Teppo-tai came from Yonezawa on the same plane with us to Portugal for Japan Week two years ago, carrying gun cases full of these.

 

(Unfortunately they have a bad habit of making paper 'cartridge wads' out of magazine pages, which increases the BANG, but blows half-burnt paper all over the square.)

 

Regarding Anthony's Tan-zutsu, please have a look at the description of the picture 1/4 of the way down this webpage, for 香車, which is a piece in Shogi which served as a Sashimono denoting Yari. (Can anyone move the game forward?)

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ten_nan_91/18492326.html

戦国時代のある武将は、香車の旗指物を使用し、「香車の指物は成らずんば帰らぬの印にて候」と果敢に戦った、そうなのでございます。

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello Piers!

 

My google translations didn't make me wiser. Does the kanji on the barrel mean "Have an inbuilt lance with a flagg on" Maybe a flagg comes out with the word bang, if i pull the trigger? :lol:

 

Regards,

 

Anthony

[John A Stuart]

香車 as Piers said is a shogi 将棋 piece. Kyosha, lance. It translates to incense chariot. It becomes 成香 when promoted.

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm.... looks as if I will have to sign in to NMB to answer this. Actually, the answer is a little difficult for me as it involves old Japanese and word-play and a knowledge of Japanese chess which I do not have.

 

My instincts tell me that this word on the gun is an indication of valour/valor in battle.The triangular-headed chess piece heads in one direction, towards the enemy. This shape (which also resembles the head of a spear) was used as a Mon and Sashimono object/flag by samurai in Muromachi times, to mean "attacking and not returning without a result". Possibly this "incense chariot" as John explains (thank you) , or "perfumed wheel" Kyousha lance piece cannot move backwards in shogi?

 

(Incidentally, when you click down a piece on the board, you "sasu" or place it, with the same sound as "sasu" or place a flag-staff in a receptacle, thus 'sashimono'. ??? cf In Go, or Igo, you "utsu" the stones. Just my own private thoughts; may be way off the mark)

[John A Stuart]

A lance 香車 Kyosha can only move forward any unblocked amount, but, if promoted can move like the gold general 金将 Kinsho. That is, forward or to the right or left or diagonally forward or straight back, but, not diagonally back, one space. It would mean to me 'no retreat' as 香車 in play. John

[Bugyotsuji]

Ah, excellent John.

 

After all that intermediate kerfuffle, 'no retreat' may be the very best two-word translation.

 

Sounds as if we may all be moving in the same direction!

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello!

 

Thank you John and Piers! Without you two i would never find that out. "No retreat" it is then. Much better then the "bang flag" coming out....

 

The two pistols will have new serpentines (and the small one a barrel repatination) fitted at a very well renowned gunsmith here in Sweden. I will send pictures when it's done.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony

[John A Stuart]

Has anyone ever seen a named gun before, a meizutsu 銘銃 ? Must be fairly rare. John

[IanB]

John, There is a large bore one in the Royal Armouries' collection, taken in a police amnesty, with raised gilt Tokugawa kamon scattered over the barrel. In silver near the breach is the name 'Abyss'. Certainly you get that impression facing the muzzle.

Ian Bottomley

[watsonmil]

Dear Ian,

A police AMNESTY, ...... Has the UK sunk so low as to have it's citizens turn in ANTIQUE firearms ? Also, ... a question : Is the gun on permanent or any display ? If it is not too much bother, ... some photographs would be in order so we the pions of society might all learn something of its type, school, quality other than museum curators would be welcomed.

... Ron Watson