mike yeon

Lee, As many have already suggested, your best course of action is to send the blade to Bob B. The state it's in, you'd have to get it polished before you send it to shinsa. I'd actually be more worried about the broken kissaki than the authenticity of the mei. Bob can help with that too. Judging by the position of the yokote, it looks like 3/4 of the kissaki would be lost if repaired. Loss of boshi would make most swords worthless. What I do know about kiyomaro, is that he didn't favor horimono. So it may not be original. From what I see, the futatsugi hi looks well done but the ken doesn't. Also consider that kiyomaro was famous in his own time (thus fake blades were produced even while he was alive.) After the wearing of blades was banned, demand dwindled almost overnight. The only blades people wanted were ones by famous smiths so even honest tosho like Gassan Sadakazu were making gimei blades. You'll find that many gimei blades of various quality were produced during this time. This is why we all might seem a bit critical/skeptical. Minomoto Kiyomaro is just about as big as it gets. Best of luck with the blade! mike

I may be late to the party but I just saw this thread. I'm glad that Bob suspected the blade is older. When the blade was papered, a bunch of the NY Club members commented that it's likely older than the shinsa-in declared it to be. Someone mentioned that sensei had a tendency to grade mumei blades as being "younger". There was a mino Kanenaga that lived during Kyoho, but there are a handful of better known Kanenaga that lived during the muromachi period. The one thing that bugged me was that the nakago-ana was not drilled straight through as you'd expect from a 18th century blade. Definitely looked koto. I'll check Malcom Cox's book on Mino swords for you. I remember seeing a page or 2 on this line of smiths. In anycase, I'm glad someone decided to restore this blade. I hope you enjoy it. mike

After a blade is retempered, it still gets polished. My guess is that the togishi gives it an edge as normal. Retempered blades were meant to be used again. And just for the record the sukesada has not been retempered. :lol: mike

Hello Brian P. It's not ubu-ha. As you mentioned, ubu-ha is located at just the first few CM starting at the hamachi. This blade is the same in sharpness up and down the length. Going off topic for a moment, when did the practice of ubu-ha start? I've seen ubu-ha on blades from Gendai to Shinto (I once owned an Echizen Kunitsuna (early 1600s) wakizashi that was in outstanding condition with ubu-ha.) Also, with ubu-ha the edge is flat. The sword in question the edge seems "rounded". As for sharpness, it looks pretty sharp. It's not dull like an iaito dull. I'd say that it would cut you just the same as something "razor" sharp. In fact I didn't really notice it until it was pointed out. It's a signed and dated Koto sue-bizen shobu-zukuri katana. Not kazu-uchi-mono as the quality is outstanding and it is signed "Bizen no Kuni Ju Osafune Sukesada Saku". It's dated 9th year of Eiroku (1567). The polish is older and was done in Japan. I think it's actually very nice, and the blade is very healthy. (attached a picture of the hada). Let me know what you think. mike

YES!!! Thank you once again Moriyama san. This felt like scratching a long standing itch... As for the theories on why this would be done, I agree with the practitioner route. Perhaps done so that when you draw the blade while practicing kata, there's less of a chance you damage the mouth of the saya. Thanks all. mike

Question. Does anybody know what the Japanese term for a blade that has had it's edge dulled on purpose during polish? One of our senior Japanese advisors said it while commenting on a blade I brought to the NYC club meeting. It escapes my mind at the moment. The blade is in full polish but the edge is not razor sharp. I did ask him why this would be done and he replied "for storage". Would there be any other reason? Curious to know. mike

Also, your friend should know that getting OUT of of Japan with a Nihonto is a hassel. I know a few instructors that keep blades here in the U.S. to avoid this. Anyway, good luck. mike

Well then he should go with buying an aluminum alloy iatio. You can go in and out of Japan hassle free with one. Again if it's just for kata then why bother with a sharpened blade? Grey's advice on a shinsakuto is a better option too. Then you get to customize as well. mike

Welcome to the board Jimmy, Muneaki was the student of Koyama Munetsugu who was a very important shin-shinto smith. Both forged blades in the Bizen tradition and many consider Munetsugu the finest Bizen smith during that period. He was very good at forging blades in the Ichimonji Bizen style. Muneaki was considered a good smith but not to Munestugu's level. Unfortunately, as Joe pointed out, the nakago (tang) looks like it was cleaned. That's not a good thing. I would contact a trained polisher to asses the blade. If the mei is real it is worth polishing. Without looking at oshigata the nakago jiri doesn't look typical of this school. Whether or not the chips came from WW2 use, they should and will be polished out if given to a traditional polisher. They are not important to the blade's history and are considered a flaw. There's links to polishers on this site, I suggest contacting them. Good luck, mike

I agree with Brian/Joe/Ken I practice Yagu Ryu and we all use alloy iaito for kata. The constant drawing of the blade will ruin the polish on an art sword. We also never use a live blade for kata. There's just so many other options out there. If your friend's reasoning is to use something authentic, he may find that the blade doesn't suit him on a weight/sugata level. You can buy some pretty nice Japanese made iaito that you can customize that can do a better job in terms of a training blade. The blade your friend is considering for purchase looks like it's seen it's share of use. Let the old warrior "retire". mike

Now that the auction is over: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... NA:US:1123 Very big name smith. Would you say the auction winner got a good deal? mike

No questions on the blades being gimei. The masamune sayagaki reads Soshu Masamune and that the attribution was done during the Meiji period. It also says that the blade is valued at 800 gold pieces. Not sure what that would translate to during that time period. If you were to look at it with an open mind, everything else about the blade just doesn't stack up. The sugata should be the first and last red light. mike

Yuzo san (showa22) is one of the good guys on eBay. I've purchased blades from him offline. I would not worry conducting business with him. mike

Nobody is correct. One of my first blades that I took to an NTHK shinsa was what I thought to be an ubu wakizashi. The worksheet came back suriage. I thought for sure this was a mistake. Yoshikawa sensei then pointed out that the hamachi was moved up one CM or so shortening the blade although the nakago was not shortened. Therefore Suriage. mike

Roland, Don't get discouraged. As we always say, another blade will come along. I know for a fact that Ed is on the road (his day job) and has been for the past week. He's a good guy and his items move fast. mike

Yes, it looks drilled. mike

Anyone else think the placement of the first mekugiana is odd... Agreed. And without measurements certainly. But sori, even on a suriage blade coupled with other factors, such as the presence of the original mekugiana/mei, I always saw as basic part of kantei as you can imagine what the orignal shape would have been. mike

Something doesn't look right with the mei though in my opinion. The chisel marks look too fresh. Not the smooth worn over look associated with a naturally deteriorating nakago/mei. mike

True as many early smiths were illiterate and many had others sign their mei for them. The blade does look good but it's unfortunate that it's in such rough condition. mike

The mei says "Yoshi Tada"? Looks koto judging by the sugata. mike

Mike, A good bet would be to contact the Great Britain Token Society or the Northern Token Society of GB. Not sure where in England they are but closer than Japan. mike

Mike, Welcome to the board. It looks like a nice blade. It is a wakizashi. But likey started it's life as a daito that was shortened intentionally (suriage). From the shape/hi, it looks like a koto blade. The signature was lost from the shortening but it retains the first kanji of "Bizen" (old Japanese province and home to a famous swordmaking school/tradition). That's my thoughts at a cursory glance. It's hard to see the hada and hamon in your pictures which would lead to more answers. I'm not a fittings guy so I can't comment on the tsougu. If you intend to keep the blade, I'd get it to someone knowledgeable that can help you with sending it to Japan for shinsa and any restoration it may need. Best of luck. mike

Goes to show how the brain reacts during these exercises. Mino was no question but to me the sugata felt soshu. So I thought mino traditions with soshu progenitors (so the brain went kaneuji or kinju.) Naoe Shizu was my guess based on the ji and hamon. But as I said the gunome was too regular for muramasa, I should have applied that same detail to naoe shizu. The biggest detail left out was sanbonsgi = kanemoto. My brain was on a runaway train by then. So Darcy, thank you very much for posting and offering us a highly educational exercise. Because there are so many "facts" in nihonto, we seldom consider how these facts came to be. Thinking from the outside in makes for good learning. Much appreciated. mike

I agree Brian. That's why I went with Naoe Shizu. Though I can't recall without access to my books if you find jizo boshi within that school. Maybe Owari Seki? mike

I can't get mino out of my head too John... Sengo Muramasa was the first thought that came to mind but took that out of my head per Darcy's advice. The togari gunome is too regular I think for muramasa. Period: Early-Mid Muromachi School: Naoe Shizu Smith: Not sure but since it's Darcy posting be sure it's a big name. :D I'd like to be wrong so I can learn a thing or two. mike